Steve Jobs says cross-compilers (like Flash CS5) make sub-standard apps
As he’s been doing a lot lately, Apple CEO Steve Jobs replied to an email from a developer concerned about iPhone 4 SDK’s ban on using cross-compilers like Flash CS5 or MonoTouch to create apps.
After a brief exchange about Daring Fireball‘s article on the matter, Greg Slepak wrote:
I still think it undermines Apple. You didn’t need this clause to get to where you are now with the iPhone’s market share, adding it just makes people lose respect for you and run for the hills, as a commenter to that article stated:
[...] I don’t think Apple has much to gain with 3.3.1, quite the opposite actually.
To which Jobs sent (not iPhone or iPad this time, but from his Mac):
We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.
That users are picking sides is interesting. Adobe wants to control the creation and distribution tools (Flash CS5 and the Flash plugin). Apple wants to control the creation and distribution tools (Xcode and App Store). There’s a battle going on for the next generation of computing, with Google, Microsoft (who won the last one) and others deep in the mix and they all want desperately to win. Both are good or evil depending on how closely their goals mirror the individual’s in question. So, while picking sides is inevitable for some, it’s also part of each company’s strategy.
[Tao Effect via 9to5Mac]
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Sheesh. How about letting developers develop HOW they like, then approve or reject based on their quality, not some agenda. As long as it adheres to the environment what does it matter how it’s made flash or Xcode? Or anything else?
I agree with Steve.
Apple bring the next revolution. As a dev im both shock and happy about them. But mostly i agree that layers hinder progress. Dev can make apps for other platform if they like. Personnaly I always hated flahs so let it die ill be happier
Flash has been terrible for anything apple for a while, there are many problems with it in safari and even firefox on mac os. I think if adobe can prove the quality of a flash to iPhone app can be as good as something coded natively for iPhone then apple should consider changing the terms, otherwise I think the AppStore has enough subpar apps as it is.
The controversy would have been over a long time ago if Apple allowed a third-party app store.
Who needs Flash anyway? I’m tired of plug-ins slowing down my browser and crashing. Bring on HTML5, sick of Flash.
It’s “wont.”
Intermediate layers?
So why not assembly code only limitation. The fastest systems I ever used were assembly only. They sucked. But they were solid and fast.
Steve’s assessment sounds like something an old fart would utter. “Damn kids these days! Java this, Flash that, and their underwear hanging out of their pants. Why I remember back in the day….”
Seriously, The more we hear about it the more it sounds like a Ballmer Chair Throw.
This isn’t about the Flash player/plugin, it’s about the Flash CS5 development environment that builds Flash apps and will convert those apps to native iPhone binary code.
Some developers think they need to use native tools for each platform and make the best possible app for that platform, and that the end user should never see that hard work just enjoy the app experience they get.
Others believe they should use the tools they like and deploy cross-platform as easily as possible and the users will appreciate the function.
We have great examples of both approaches working well, and working poorly. There are lots of terrible Air and Java apps and I avoid using them completely. There are lots of terrible Xcode complied iPhone apps and I avoid them just the same.
Sometimes both are good, like Safari on Mac’s UI with cross-platform WebKit inside it. (Hopefully Firefox goes native for UI on both Mac and PC next time).
On the iPhone, games aside, many developers who care most deeply about their apps seem to be the ones who care enough to learn Cocoa touch and make iPhone-like apps.
Apple’s philosophy is very much in line with that approach as well. Except for their Windows apps, of course :-/
My only thought is that Apple has the ban in place “for now”, until they can get real world data of multitasking apps after 4.0 is out. Make sure everything on Apple’s end is working good, then slowly bring everything else back in.
Remember how Task Manageers and Memory Freeing apps were removed from the app store some time ago? I still have one, and even running the app causes the iPad to slowly become unstable, let alone using the app to actually free the memory.
Telephony is a real-time application. It’s bad enough that they built a phone that runs OS X; the last thing they should do on a telephone is open up the kernel just to let Adobe pollute it with their crap code.
“intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps”
http://tinyurl.com/yaa96jx
Top Seller. One of Gamasutra’s Top 5 Games of 2009. Written in a .NET language under Unity3D. Banned under 3.3.1. Plenty of other examples on unity3d and MonoTouch’s sites, and those are only the small percentage of houses who have gone public.
“and hinders the progress of the platform.”
3.3.1 not only bans cross-compilers, but also DSLs and preprocessors. Now, let’s see…what other preprocessor grew up into a mature, sophisticated language when a group of talented developers were able to continue working on it? Oh yeah:
Objective-C
If something like 3.3.1 had existed 25 years ago for C/C++, we would not have Objective C, because NeXT would have been violating the terms of such an “agreement” by using a custom preprocessor – an intermediate layer -for C.
So who is trying to hinder progress here?
iPod/iPad could be a different story. But why should it be?
No Flash! Steve is right on.
How about making those tools available to people who don’t/can’t afford a Mac? I’d sure love to make an app for website.
I mean half of the site is more iTouch users than DSi users.
i seriously don’t understand this technology/code/lingo/language that they’re talking about? can someone please help.
Where’s the iPhone news!!! Grrr,!..
The big broblem is Apple forcing people to get a mac to develop for the iPhone.
I want a way to develop iPhone apps without it taking 3 years (including 2 years to save up for a mac and time to figure out how to make it do actual work).
Apple really should make their tools available for something besides mac but as far as cs5 goes I think apple is fine where it stands. This was very insightful: http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/whyapplechangedsection331
That formated weird i apolgize http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/whyapplechangedsection331 it’s all underscores not spaces.
**** flash!
This is all a bit beyond me but what about the “normal” user. I love my iPhone but get sooooo frustrated I can’t see some of my favourite web sites or videos (which need flash).
The great browsing experience is a massive selling point for Apple, but seriously undermined when you can’t browse your favourite sites – are they all going to have to be re-written? It’s stopping me from getting an iPad
Apple should just make a “flash”-like software for themeselves and their products only, & just suck it up and handle it quickly. Consumers are expecting something simple from Apple, but aren’t getting it. This is an ultimate request to Apple! Like Apple said(not sure if it’s in correct wordings.) “Don’t like the software? Then make your own..” And they should before things get really negative.
If Adobe and developers of other development platforms concentrate on other OS’s like Android or WebOS, it could really start hurting Apple’s Bottom Line in the Long Run. Once users start seeing developers like Electronic Arts realize that they can make as much money NOW on Android as they were on the iPhone 2 years ago, AND they can still get a good user experience, Apple will have successfully blown its lead. Think about it, If I am PopCap and I already develop for Android, WebOS, Flash on the Web, The PC, the MAC, etc, Why wouldn’t I want to be able to produce for all of most of those in a singular environment? I GET where Apple is coming from. I really do. They want the single best experience possible for their devices. But anyone will tell you, there are other devices that are approaching the appliance like experience of the iPhone and iPad…….and it won’t take too much for the tide to turn. Some believe it is already happening.
….just sayin’…..
let’s hope the big C will get Steve Jobs soon ! The Apple is getting rotten.
Very dissapointing from Steve. For me, biggest flaw of iPad = no flash. Second, no multitasking. This is just another of those inexplicable things apple does, like no native video recording for iPhone 2G/3G. It hits me on my nerves.
Half the posters in this thread have no idea what they are responding to. This isn’t about flash on the iPhone/ipod/iPad, its simply about developer tools. It’s about Steve cockblocking other platforms by making developers work twice as hard if they want to develop for other platforms. It’s draconian and it shows that Steve has a big stick up his butt and is fearful of the competition. Instead of competing with innovation, he would rather stifle while the iPhone plays catch-up in areas that the iPhone been surpassed.
Thank you Freaknasty. The kids (and uninformed adults) should just not comment if they are under the impression that this flash is the flash plug in that “is the devil”.
End of story, his reason is bull. Pure bull. There are many apps that used these,now illegal tools, and they were great. So I don’t buy these latest excuses at all.
This seems more of a move to keep developers locked into the iPhone through fear. These tools would’ve made it easier for them to also make apps for other platforms. Steve sees that as the iPhone losing the only advantage it has over other phones. So he tells them to either quit that or leave. Developers want the money, so they basically have no choice but to comply.
Low down dirty business Jobs is running.
Sorry, uninformed adult here
but do have a couple of friends who have developed iPhone app’s …and tell me how tough Apple make it This sounds like another case of it.
It’s bad news for us app lovers, as it’s another reason for developers to focus on Android or the others so less new app’s for us?
Rene makes an excellent point here.
“Apple’s philosophy is very much in line with that approach as well. Except for their Windows apps, of course :-/”
When will it start writing its apps for windows like it wants devs to write for iPhone? Use native UI standards etc. Make a decent version of iTunes for Windows Steve (the platform most of your paying customers use)and then we can talk.
If you want to run Xcode you need a Mac. If you want to run Visual Studio you need Windows. If you want to make Nintendo/PS3/Xbox titles you need their crazy dev kits. That part isn’t unusual.
Rene you should have posted up the rebuttle email to that reply Steve made.
“The Mac has only been helped by the fact that Firefox, Ableton Live, and hundreds of other high-quality applications can run on it thanks to the fact that developers have a choice as to what tools they can use on it.
Crappy developers will make crappy apps regardless of how many layers there are, and it doesn’t make sense to limit source-to-source conversion tools like Unity3D and others. They’re all building apps through the iPhone developer tools in the end so the situation isn’t even comparable to the Mac where applications can completely avoid using Apple’s frameworks by replacing them with others.
In my opinion, 3.3.1 only serves to make the platform less attractive to legitimate developers, giving them reason to write their software for competing platforms instead.
Thanks for considering this.
Sincerely, Greg”
@vickie It really doesn’t profit Apple much to make a high quality Windows product. Sometimes I honestly believe they purposely make bloated, crappy Windows programs to show how much of a better platform OSX is. After all if I buy an iPhone in an Apple store and see how awesome iTunes, Quicktime, and Safari are there, then I get home and see how bad iTunes is on my home computer, then it will always be in my head that OSX is superior. If I am Joe Public I don’t comprehend that it just may be Apple creating crummy software. Joe Public will only see that iTunes is nicer on OSX and may consider buying a MacBook instead of a Thinkpad.
@Rene Ritchie Do you know of any inherent advantages of the user interface of Xcode over Visual Studio? Is it easier to develop for either? Or is it all individual preference? I have played with Visual Studio and Eclipse but have never see XCode. Is it some extremely easy drag and drop thing?
@solar_plexus Thanks for that …I last used a Mac 20 years ago! Had no idea iTunes was different – (wrongly) assumed they were the same.
Ableton Live is a perfect example of crossplatform moronics. The reason the software is successful is not the interface – it is its function. It is a perfect fit for the DJ/dance-beat-electronica crowd.
Abletons interface on the other hand is just a mess. All scroll-bars are on the wrong side and to narrow etc. Lots of irritating stuff that slows down using it.
What I like with the latest versions of Ableton and Logic is that they use the single-window approach started by ProTools. Not a lot of overlapping windows.
Oh – let me add that I’m with Steve Jobs on the matter at hand.
(Copy of) Dev did not go far enough, so, to repeat:
1) There already are award winning native apps in the App Store built with other languages under cross-compilers, so Jobs is quite clearly lying.
2) NeXT under Jobs (and therefore OSX) produced all its software innovations based on the same techniques he now bans, so not only is he lying, but he is a rank hypocrite.
Jobs is feeding us all chicken s*** and telling us it is chicken salad, and you all happily lap it up, while never touching on or disputing the above facts.
@vickie Functionally they are the same(for the most part) Its just that there is generally a noticeable difference in performance.
So, does this mean that if I write an application in Objective-C with xcode that can execute actionscript (as an attached data file), that would also be banned? At what point does this nonsense stop?
This is the same as saying only Software Engineers who reside in the US can write apps for the iphone because everything else written outside the US would be crappy. Throwing the baby out with the bath water syndrome.
While I may not agree with Apple, consider ALL the reason’s how this benefits them:
Can anybody think of more reasons?
http://tinyurl.com/yana7fl this just about sums it up and honestly it’s not like iTunes is crap on windows because apple wanted it that way, it’s because it’s not native code. Steve jobs is right in saying there hasn’t really been many apps that are made using non-native code. Look at firefox on apple computers. It works but not very well at all. Honestly in my opinion the quality of apps are always going to be better using native code and from developers that actually want to learn obj-c. According to apple that’s how they feel too so they told adobe to gtfo. And made programming for iPhone an exclusive fan club: learn our code if you want to use our platform.
When are people going to realize that Apple is the evil company. They want control of everything. Just like when they did with the early Macs, they will lose control of the market the built due to their arogance. I hope everyone learns the lesson for the next time.
We still have FXG and webGL to look forward to.
sorry to double post, I’d love to see Adobe stop making Mac versions of their software.
As long as there are a large variety of competing platforms for phones (iPhone, Android, Blackberry, WebOS, and Windows Phone), cross-compilers will be absolutely necessary. As much as it would be nice to be able to develop separate apps for each of them, there are simply too many. This really is a dick move on Apple’s part.
I understand what they are trying to do. By banning cross-compilers, they make many developers choose either iPhone or the rest. And many are going to (for now) choose iPhone. If Apple continues to alienate developers, more and more developers will chose Android over the iPhone.
They gotta stop making harder for developers. Otherwise they won’t have anyone to develop for them and then what will happen? If you have to buy a Mac (there’s a couple thousand dollars for a good one) to develop for the iPhone, then you’re told how to do it and can only use those tools and no others, you might as well say screw it and develop for another platform that doesn’t put so many restrictions on you.
I understand trying to advance technology, but you just can’t throw it down all at once, otherwise there’s going to be compatibility issues all over.
DIE FLASH.
“Technology is nothing. What’s important is that you have a faith in people, that they’re basically good and smart, and if you give them tools, they’ll do wonderful things with them. It’s not the tools that you have faith in — tools are just tools.”
I think that Apple is trying to protect their plataform and their developers, i belive since AppStore started, more applications for MacOSX has been made, since they share mostly same language and APIs, is fair enough for me that Apple is trying use sucess of iPhone to strengthen their platform
Sounds like good old American capitalism. The decision should be in the hands of the artists, not these business idiots in the USA.
This is a bit too technical for me but what I want to know is, will this affect previous apps from before? Ie. will my old apps still work?
Can’t anybody see the REAL issue?? If Steve allows flash on the iPhone or iPad, it negates the App store. Anyone could publish a flash app and the user could add it as a bookmark to their iPhone or iPad and VOILA! End run around the App store…
He wants us to believe that it’s about Flash or Adobe or whatever… it’s about making more money. Problem is it will backfire once all the other non-Mac tablet devices come out that won’t have any problems with Flash.
TheRealRealStory.. Steves proprietary arrogance has caused him to lose before. The Nextstep computer was suppose to beat the PC and the Mac in 85 with it’s “revolutionary ” Object Oriented” software and hardware architecture It failed because it was so stealthy about its tech and lack of exposure, however Mac OS X and Xcode are the NextStep children.
Mean while MS was wining the PC war after implementing the windows interface, and gaining massive support from third party hardware and software venders. Apple stayed closed and cold with very little software for business users and no software for developers. (btw.. MS didn’t steal windows, you can’t patent a concept.)
After years of MS splitting it’s stocks time and time again. Apple lost again when MS had to bail them out and save the company from failure. MS was so powerful that they were able to bail out Apple while being sued by the government at the same time. Apple’s proprietary CPU choices couldn’t keep up with the Intel corp, and for the third time Apple lost to the PC and became one. Yeah wake up the Mac is dead, it’s just a pretty case.
Now with the onset of mobile devices going cross platform, and with open DEVs, where most are in support of Adobe/Flash.. or anything great, you tell me what’s gonna happen to the “ithing”, or whatever it chooses to be. I say It will die as the Mac did and for the same reasons as before….hummm will it be a MSpad device that has massive support from 90% of the worlds smartest people?. Can Bill steal the show again? Sure he can! He’s not looking down his nose at developers like Steve who can’t see past his own boggers.
Sort yourself out Jobs.
You say that making apps in flash will result in sub-standard apps but surely you can’t simply link the fact that it’s easier to make apps with sub-standard ones. Does iFart not exist. There is in fact a bigger argument that only allowing apps to be written in Cocoa means that people will hit a hurdle and may stop short of what they wanted to achieve in the first place. Surely allowing users of a widely used platform such as flash to make apps will mean people create apps with less bugs and better written code. I understand the concept of flooding the market with half-baked apps but the reality is not there.
The answer lies in proper vetting of apps. There are hundreds currently on the appstore now that are purely made to trick the user into buying them. They promise everything and then when you download it you realize it is completely useless. The only explanation I can see for this is that the time required to learn cocoa and make a good app could not be justified when a rubbish app can be made much quicker and a large sum of money can be made before people have the chance to review it.
The only solution to all of this I can see is to have a much better vetting system. Now I’m not talking about banning stupid apps as I’m sure many people get great pleasure from iFart I’m talking about only allowing apps through that have been well thought out, well built and that run smoothly. Surely this should be the only criteria, not what platform they were written in.
You know it makes sense. Currently people respect apple for the high standards. Soon you will be known as money grabbing dictators shunning the very people who make the iphone great in the first place.
If this doesn’t get sorted there’s many alternatives.
The much more functional but much less stylish alternative to the iPad.
http://www.eclipsecomputers.com/product.aspx?code=NB-ALLFINE-BK
Thanks
Will
I’ve been developing iPhone / iPod Touch apps for the past year and tend to agree with Will. I have not seen any applications (to my knowledge) that have been developed using the Flash to iPhone compiler. However, I have been developing flash apps for over seven years and I dare to say, the only restriction i would have in making a game look exactally like one made using codex would a lag in 3D rendering. 2D games, on the other hand should look and function perfectly. Since everyone uses windows, and since flash is so easy to use, there would be a risk of children posting games with the intent of selling something it is not. much more so than it is already. If apple would take the initiative to set up a filtering process, even though they charge an anual fee to developers, that should eleviate the problem. I mean, those same filtering processes are availible on several flash sites like mmfiles, buystockflash, flashjuggler and flashden. small web companies that make almost no money can accomplish this, what’s Apples excuse. It really isn’t that big of a deal to thumb $500 on a mac mini, install codex and the iphone sdk to develop rich, full featured apps. But if the reason for denying companies like Adobe to make cross platform compilers for the IOS is to filter kids making software for thier products, then they really need to have thier heads examined. If it’s (as they basically say) to stand alone from the competition, then they will soon be scraping the bottom of the barrel as they have in the past, and more respectable companies like Microsoft and/or even Adobe will capitalize on thier technologies by releasing hardware that trumps anything Apple could ever create. Let’s hope they learned thier lesson the first time and realize greed doesn’t figure into big business.
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