Thurrott'ling Windows Mobile: Take 2

iPhone_thurrott.jpg

Sure, die hard Windows pundit Paul Thurrott has already stepped out of the iPhone closet, skewering Windows Mobile both in his blog and in a (cold medicine induced?) tirade during the Windows Weekly podcast on the TWiT network.

Now, in response to to the CTIA Conference's official announcement of Windows Mobile 6.1, Thurrott once again gives anything but his usual spin:

Microsoft's response to [the iPhone] threat has been abysmal. On the other hand, at least the company is responding. In the year since Apple first announced the iPhone, there's been a sudden flurry of activity in the Windows Mobile world as Microsoft scrambles to embrace iPhone-like UIs and technologies in its own products. But Windows Mobile is hobbled by a number of factors, not the least of which is the gap between the software itself and the broken ecosystem (especially in the US) that is responsible for incorporating that software into devices and selling them to end users. The smart phone market isn't like the PC market, and Microsoft can't easily offer updates to existing Windows Mobile customers. Sometimes it can't do so at all.

And, bringing to mind George Wallace's comedy classic, "You know a better time to kick a man?", Thurrott jumps on the downed OS maker thusly:

Lost amid all this, I think, is another indication of Microsoft's inability to compete effectively in this market. They're creating deceptive advertisements that make Windows Mobile look better than it really is. Here are two example "screenshots" of Windows Mobile 6, taken from the Microsoft Web site. See if you can spot the problem: [...] If you guessed, Windows Mobile doesn't actually look anything like that, then you guessed correctly.

(Be sure to check out Thurrott's complete post for the screenshots.)

How far behind the curve is Microsoft in the mobile OS space? Can they catch up to the iPhone? Are they even trying? What do you think?

Rene Ritchie

Editor-in-Chief of iMore, co-host of Iterate, Debug, Review, Vector, and MacBreak Weekly podcasts. Cook, grappler, photon wrangler. Follow him on Twitter and Google+.

More Posts

 

0
loading...
0
loading...
0
loading...
0
loading...

← Previously

REVIEW: Speck Products Techstyle Classic Leather

Next up →

AT&T Mobility CEO Speaks: iPhone 3G Coming "in Months"

Reader comments

Thurrott'ling Windows Mobile: Take 2

91 Comments

how far behind is MS? That depends on your perspective, some will say MS is still ahead if the iPhone for some features and they're right. But MS will always lag behind apple when it comes to innovation, they always have and always will. MS isnt a company that innovates, they look at others innovations and then make a horrible, bastardized, less-than-useful version of it and proclaim to the public that they have advanced their software yet again. And the sheep continue to believe this tripe.

What a twit. You cant even edit office documents on an iPhone. A style over substance idiot such as this should be using an iPhone in any case. Please do me a favour and give up on windows mobile.
Surur

You can't really edit office documents on WinMob either, least not when I wasted tons of cash on a WinMob device a couple years ago hoping to do just that. It mangled the formatting and didn't properly support styles and other features I needed (neither did Docs2Go or QuickOffice). Granted, I have specific perhaps high-end needs, but it made me realize I didn't need to suffer through WinMob and still not do my work...
@Surur, don't take your anger at Microsoft out on the forum. It's not the forum's fault even staunch Windows fanboys like Thurrott are questioning MS' ability to deliver compelling product in the space. What was especially interesting, if true, is the assertion that Microsoft (like Palm?) bailed on their previous next-gen plans after witnessing the iPhone, leading to a hurried attempt to respond, delay, or FUD their way through...

You can't really edit office documents on WinMob either,
An idiotic statement by ... an iPhone user.
Suffice to say no-one is going to be writing the Great American Novel in Notes.
Surur

Wow Surur, have you even used Windows Mobile to edit a document? It pales in comparison to Documents to Go's offering and has for years. Even then, Docs 2 Go still does not offer the robust formating we need. Looks like we will have to rely on Microsoft to deliver an office package after all... on an iPhone. Kinda funny really.

Wow Surur, have you even used Windows Mobile to edit a document? It pales in comparison to Documents to Go's offering and has for years. Even then, Docs 2 Go still does not offer the robust formating we need. Looks like we will have to rely on Microsoft to deliver an office package after all... on an iPhone. Kinda funny really.
Further stupidity. You are obviously talking about round-tripping, and the success of that depends on the complexity of the original document. Office Mobile is fine for simple invoices, tables and forms.
Also if you want to create original content e.g. write a few paragraphs of an essay its perfectly fine for that too.
In addition there are a wide variety of office document editors for WM, including docs to go, and full-fledged office suites like softmaker mobile.
Again, its hilarious hearing criticisms of this WM functionality when it does not even exits on the iPhone.
What next - the internet connection sharing dialogue not pretty enough for you? The cut and paste pop-up doesn't have rounded corners? Dont like the 2 dimension look of the 3G icon?
Surur

An idiotic statement by ... an iPhone user.
A comment from an arrogant Windows Mobile Fanboy.
I am not a Apple iPhone owner, but these comments are downright rude and uncalled for. You should really learn to respect the comments of others and even though you may not agree, that does not give you the right to insult or otherwise denegrate others.
As for the article, who the hell cares whether you can or cannot edit documents on the iPhone? It wasn't the point. The article author uses the example of M$ misrepresenting one of its own products in light of the reality.
As a long time WM owner, I think it's amusing that even long-time Windows tech bloggers are bring out many of the shortcomings of the platform that were accepted as standard. M$'s lack of innovation and creative drive is now coming to a head.

[quote=surur;1428373]What a twit. You cant even edit office documents on an iPhone. A style over substance idiot such as this should be using an iPhone in any case. Please do me a favour and give up on windows mobile.
Surur
[quote=surur;1428555]An idiotic statement by ... an iPhone user.
Suffice to say no-one is going to be writing the Great American Novel in Notes.
Surur
[quote=surur;1428590]Further stupidity...
Surur
My oh my, how some things NEVER change. Still shilling for M$oft are we. The REALLY stupid statement here is the insistence that any such device is adequate for editing documents, or for that matter even should be attempted. I've been in the PDA and converged device space since the original Palm Pilot, through every generation of Windows CE/Mobile, Blackberry, and now iPhone. Given the tiny screens, meager keyboards - at best - and formatting failures, everyone by now should know you cannot effectively edit Word nor Excel documents on a cell phone size device. Even an UMPC device is a stretch.
The best you can realistically hope for is a good viewer and the ability to make comments in an email reply. That's where Docs to Go is superior in its rendering engine to let you see more of what you get. There is no way a convincing argument can be made for the ability to truly edit documents on a converged device - not even the HTC ultra-mini notebook style.

An idiotic statement by ... an iPhone user.
Suffice to say no-one is going to be writing the Great American Novel in Notes.
Surur
Just curious, how many "Great American Novels" have been written on a WM device? I can't think of any... :confused:
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller??
-kthxbai

Personal attacks, IMHO, are just ways to distract from a conversation when there are no facts to back up whatever point or troll you're trying to make.
I've had 3 books published. I wanted very much to work on them on-the-go, and that's why I bought my first WinMob device. I wasn't looking for Quark or InDesign, just something I could use and go back-and-forth between with my laptop. Sadly, no platform offered a solution for that, for my needs. I ended up using the mobile docs as basically a viewer, sometimes to chart character paths or jot down quick notes. I can do both those things on the iPhone today (granted, Note syncing would be nice :) )
Apple's been in the phone game for less than a year and is still on v1 (a few years if we count Safari Pad development, which I would argue is only partially related).
Microsoft has been doing this for a decade and is at version 6. That they don't enjoy the monopoly they have on the desktop and office market to force people to use old, dodgy code-bases really shoes in WinMob, unfortunately. It seems like it's their DNA to jack all systems and master none. If they nailed the integration, I would forgive them and, indeed, be all over them. That they almost comedically bungle it all is so far beyond disappointing that I'm increasingly distancing myself from it.

Microsoft has been doing this for a decade and is at version 6. That they don't enjoy the monopoly they have on the desktop and office market to force people to use old, dodgy code-bases really shoes in WinMob, unfortunately. It seems like it's their DNA to jack all systems and master none. If they nailed the integration, I would forgive them and, indeed, be all over them. That they almost comedically bungle it all is so far beyond disappointing that I'm increasingly distancing myself from it.
This is all due to MS's complete inability to innovate. If they can't rip off a feature or interface from someone else they can't improve their products. Unfortunately they've never seemed to be able to rip off "stability" from anyone...

It's not just M$oft's fault. I do understand that they are unlike the others (Apple, Palm, Nokia) in that they have to provide a platform for numerous and varied hardware developers; not as easy running a kitty litter box as it is to fence off your own sandbox. Very understandable that Apple can control the whole experience (so what is Palm's excuse then). Still, tehy are ALL well behind on UI design...my take is that "interface" is just a bolt on to the backend for all of them, compared to an integrated experience on the iPhone.

The point, which most of you seem to miss, is that the complaint here seems to be that WM is not pretty enough, and should innovate some "pretty" into it.
Thats idiotic.
Surur

Pretty has nothing to do with it. The iPhone's GUI isn't good because it's pretty, it's good because it has thus far unmatched usability. Animation isn't about eye-candy. It's about hiding process time and providing opt-out time. Swiping between screens isn't about cool, its about using surface space effectively. Elastic bounce-back isn't about squash'n'stretch, it's about providing realistic feedback to enable scroll handling.
That micosoft thinks it can splash some green'ed up Vista paint on 6.1 is "pretty": pretty superficial and pretty ineffective.
The complaint here, which is being missed, is that WM is not user friendly.
Gates summed it up perfectly at the D conference. During early Mac meetings, he listened to discussions which he thought were purely engineering questions, yet Jobs interjected himself to make decisions based on user experience. Gates never considered that.
Microsoft still builds things because they think they need to be in a certain space, then shoehorn what they can into that space, and let politics and engineering hobble the end result.
BTW- Your lack of understanding the issue does not make those who understand the issue, nor the issue itself idiotic. It makes us different of opinion, about what and why is important, and that's fine. That's what creates debate. That's how we all learn and grow. :)

[quote=surur;1428860]The point, which most of you seem to miss, is that the complaint here seems to be that WM is not pretty enough, and should innovate some "pretty" into it.
Thats idiotic.
Surur
Hey old buddy - READ - most everyone here is discussing UI in context of integration with the OS; accomplishing primary functions; and in my case the question of advisability of editing Office documents in general on any under-powered, small screen device. Pre-V2, the iPhone does exihibit significant limits (no push email, VPN, etc.) but without a doubt, it is already ahead of WinMob 6.1 on an interface and integration level, and it is merely a V1 device (technically 1.1.4?). What is WinMob 6.1 - version 10 or more of WinCE (they should have stuck with "wince" as it accurately reflects Balmer's attitude at this point). What is sticking in your craw, and that of other WinMob supporters, is losing the support of guys like Thurott and Pirillo...

Pretty has nothing to do with it. The iPhone's GUI isn't good because it's pretty, it's good because it has thus far unmatched usability. Animation isn't about eye-candy. It's about hiding process time and providing opt-out time. Swiping between screens isn't about cool, its about using surface space effectively. Elastic bounce-back isn't about squash'n'stretch, it's about providing realistic feedback to enable scroll handling.
That micosoft thinks it can splash some green'ed up Vista paint on 6.1 is "pretty": pretty superficial and pretty ineffective.
The complaint here, which is being missed, is that WM is not user friendly.
Gates summed it up perfectly at the D conference. During early Mac meetings, he listened to discussions which he thought were purely engineering questions, yet Jobs interjected himself to make decisions based on user experience. Gates never considered that.
Microsoft still builds things because they think they need to be in a certain space, then shoehorn what they can into that space, and let politics and engineering hobble the end result.
BTW- Your lack of understanding the issue does not make those who understand the issue, nor the issue itself idiotic. It makes us different of opinion, about what and why is important, and that's fine. That's what creates debate. That's how we all learn and grow. :)
And there you go missing the point again. While you go around amusing yourself bouncing and stretching, you dont even have the FUNCTIONALITY of cutting and pasting. Thats a joke.
Surur

If I'm missing the blunt, off-target "point" you keep pitching willy-nilly-like, I apologize. Perhaps I'm preoccupied with the forrest and miss the few, as yet under-grown trees.
Personally, I don't really miss cut'n'paste though it might come in handy on occasion. I do miss beaming info and vid capture, and would enjoy dial-by-photo. Again, we're talking a v1 phone less than a year on the market here, not a v6 phone over a decade in.
Which brings me rather neatly to what I don't miss. Won't I don't miss is a CONSTANTLY CRASHING PHONE, which neither Palm nor WinMob ever managed to deliver. Jobs was right, voice is the killer app on a PHONE, and Apple got that point dead-center. First year out. v1.
Boom.

And here is an example where style does not trump function.
Bluetooth keyboard a must for reporters and many bloggers
The lack of a bluetooth or other keyboard option is definitely a dealbreaker for me with the iPhone right now. I'm a journalist, and I'm looking not just for a cool camera/web phone but for pro-quality all-in-one handheld reporting tool.
It sounds like the next-generation iPhone will probably have real GPS and be 3G compatible (two other must-haves, for me), but I'm disappointed that there's still no word on the bluetooth or other keyboard.
I've demoed the iPhone's touchscreen keyboard several times, and I absolutely detest it for anything more than typing a few words at a time. It's definitely not something I could take notes with or write a real blog post on while in the field, and I'm sick of lugging a laptop plus a camera, voice recorder, etc.
I had a brief, torrid affair with the Nokia N95, which was exactly what I wanted -- interface wasn't as intuitive as the iPhone, but the functionality and features were, for my needs, far superior. However, the very first firmware upgrade from Nokia bricked my N95, and since I was facing a tight refund deadline from Amazon and Nokia would take 2-3 weeks to fix/replace and return it to me, I reluctantly decided to give up for now.
I'm an avid Mac use and I'd love for the iPhone to catch up with what I really need -- but if the N95 or forthcoming N96 becomes available from a local retail outlet so I could get more immediate service if needed, I'm running back to Nokia. I think they have a better handle than Apple so far on what kind of device mobile content creators (rather than consumers) really need. So far.
More about my experience with the N95 here:
http://urltea.com/3353
- Amy Gahranhttp://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=5264445#post5264445
All I hear from the mac fanboys here are how MS is not innovating, when the iPhone is so many years behind its not even funny. I guess when Steve gets round to "innovating" 3G, a proper bluetooth stack, built-in GPS and about 100 other things where the iPhone pathetically falls down you will be hailing these as revolutionary too.
The iPhone may be designed for airheads, but sometimes people want to do work on the run, and then more than glitz is needed.
Surur

From MSNBC...
Survey: Apple awesome, Microsoft 'stodgy'
Poll reveals which brands have the biggest impact on world's consumers
updated 9:08 a.m. MT, Mon., March. 31, 2008
LONDON - The Apple brand has the biggest impact on the world's consumers, while Microsoft and the image of the United States (as a brand) are those considered most in need of a remake, a survey showed on Monday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23879966/

Gruber re-posted this Jobs quote today. Quite pertinent:
“Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer — that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.”

or how it doesnt work - "we've designed it not to multi-task, just suck it up. And dont forget to check regularly to see if you have new AIM messages."
Surur

The iPhone multitasks very well. I'm listening to a podcast (Windows Weekly!) as I type this.
Did you mean to write "we've designed it not to crash, not to suck. And don't forget voice is the killer app?"
Tangent: How badly would a Merlin Mann GTD-type appreciate the constant distraction of Push, SMS, IM, etc.? Speaking of which--

[quote=surur;1429004]...
All I hear from the mac fanboys here are how MS is not innovating, when the iPhone is so many years behind its not even funny. I guess when Steve gets round to "innovating" 3G, a proper bluetooth stack, built-in GPS and about 100 other things where the iPhone pathetically falls down you will be hailing these as revolutionary too.
The iPhone may be designed for airheads, but sometimes people want to do work on the run, and then more than glitz is needed.
Surur
Well, it does help to at least have opposable thumbs if you want to use the iPhone onscreen keyboard. It took me all of two days to be able to type as well on the iPhone keyboard as Blackberry or Tilt. And as for the bluetooth keyboard, I thought the purpose was to reduce your devices and be ever mobile, not carry a pocket (or bag) full of gadgets on the road.
The "fanboys" as you call them have all brought up good points on usability and interface design, and you haven't (really can't) address the issue that WinCE has not evolved as far in 10 years as the iPhone in its first generation. Face facts, you can't deal with the elegance of Apple's first effort, and the fact that within 90 days (one year from release) it will fill most, if not all, of the corporate and user complaints, including push email and 3g. On that last note, I sure hope they don't implement 3g like your WinCE friends Samsung and HTC, because I've had both in the last two years and battery drains faster than the kitchen sink.

not to mention that iPhone has gone from 1.0 to 1.1.4 and is on the cusp of 2.0 within 1 (one) year! No one else manages updates as frequently or smoothly. Not even close.

not to mention that iPhone has gone from 1.0 to 1.1.4 and is on the cusp of 2.0 within 1 (one) year! No one else manages updates as frequently or smoothly. Not even close.
Anyone can advance their build numbers at any rate they want. The fact is that update after update has been disappointing, adding little of substance.
The usability argument is a red herring. Obviously WM is usable - I am using it. The iPhone may be more usable, as long as you only want to do what Stevie wants you to do. Because WM does more of what I want to do, it is more usable than the iPhone is now.
Example - If I want to use my phone as a broadband modem (which I do most days) No matter how I scroll through the limited settings, I just could not find this options. Scrolling was fun though.
Or how about using my phone for GPS (and no, google maps is not suffient, even with locate me). I just drove 250 miles from London to Cornwall, using my Tilt for turn by turn directions. Strangely enough the iPhone had pretty poor usability for this function.
These are just two of many examples. You downplay the poor functionality of the iphone by claiming its an immature product - of course it is, so why would I use it? Because I can browse the web better? I can already do as much with Opera Mobile 9.5.
The iPhone has crap usability once one goes outside of Stevie's envelope, and thats a simple fact.
BTW, you claims to the wonderful crash-proofness of the iPhone rings hollow next to posts like these.
#1
mm1250
macrumors Demi-God
Join Date: Sep 2007 My iPhone really acting up now
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
I wanted to see if anyone else has been running into these similar issues.
1. My iPhone goes to sleep than when I turn it back on, slide the slider than NONE of my buttons work, as if the touchscreen is disabled. I have to reboot it to get it working agian.
2. I have issues when I click the home button sometimes it turns the screen off, i have to click a few times to get it back to normal.
Has anyone else noticed this? I have no customizations or anything special installed, no hacks etc.. Is this a bug?
__________________
MacBook Pro
2.2Ghz Core 2 Duo, 15.4''
2GB RAM, 120GB HD
Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard
iPhone 8GB
mm1250
View Public Profile
Send a private message to mm1250
Find More Posts by mm1250
Add mm1250 to Your Buddy List
Today, 12:44 AM #2
chrismac00
macrumors regular
Join Date: Dec 2007 Quote:
Originally Posted by mm1250
Hello,
I wanted to see if anyone else has been running into these similar issues.
1. My iPhone goes to sleep than when I turn it back on, slide the slider than NONE of my buttons work, as if the touchscreen is disabled. I have to reboot it to get it working agian.
2. I have issues when I click the home button sometimes it turns the screen off, i have to click a few times to get it back to normal.
Has anyone else noticed this? I have no customizations or anything special installed, no hacks etc.. Is this a bug?
This happened to me. I bought an AT&T reburb iPhone and it just kept on bugging me. It kept freezing and I had to keep rebooting it. I got mad and called AppleCare and sent it out. Two days later(today) I received a replacement iPhone(brand new).
__________________
MacBook 2.16GHz 1GB RAM 120HDD Leopard && iPhone 8GB!!
chrismac00
View Public Profile
Send a private message to chrismac00
Find More Posts by chrismac00
Add chrismac00 to Your Buddy List
Today, 12:46 AM #3
Santa Rosa
macrumors regular
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Apple Store Buchanan Connect it up to your Mac, iTunes will open, then sync, then just hit restore and that should fix it if its a software problem.
Otherwise back to the Apple store.
__________________
[Insert Apple Equipment Here]
Aww who cares you probably have it too...
Santa Rosa
View Public Profile
Send a private message to Santa Rosa
Send email to Santa Rosa
Find More Posts by Santa Rosa
Add Santa Rosa to Your Buddy List
Today, 02:06 AM #4
skubish
macrumors 65816
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan Quote:
Originally Posted by mm1250
Hello,
I wanted to see if anyone else has been running into these similar issues.
1. My iPhone goes to sleep than when I turn it back on, slide the slider than NONE of my buttons work, as if the touchscreen is disabled. I have to reboot it to get it working agian.
2. I have issues when I click the home button sometimes it turns the screen off, i have to click a few times to get it back to normal.
Has anyone else noticed this? I have no customizations or anything special installed, no hacks etc.. Is this a bug?
Try resetting it. Hold down the button on the top and power off. Then turn it back on.
__________________
12" iBook/512MB/80GB/Combo
8GB iPhone
80GB iPod
Shuffle
2GB White Nano
skubish
View Public Profile
Send a private message to skubish
Find More Posts by skubish
Add skubish to Your Buddy List
Today, 03:57 PM #5
crazychris3992
macrumors member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: virginia beach, va
well my screen freezes on the slide to unlock screen. when im going through cover flow, it crashed, and when im on the internet, it crashes. i tried resetting it and it still continued.
__________________
iMac 24" 2.4 GHz
iPod Touch 16 Gb
iPod Nano 1g 2Gb
MacBook Air 1.6 GHz 80 Gb(soon)
8 gb iPhone
Surur

dude's phone is deffective. Not an os stability issue.
And resetting or restoring the phone is going to fix that, is it?
Anyway, I would much rather have a phone that works 95% of the time and let me do amazing things that a toy that works 100% of the time and hardly does anything at all.
In fact, at the moment I am sitting here in my hotel room, tethered via bluetooth to my phone, which is positioned precariously on the window sill, which is the only place in the room where there is any reception, and I thank my lucky stars I am not using an iPhone.
Surur

The fact that someone made that suggestion doesn't change the fact that his phone is broken.
And call me when windows mobile ships with a useable web browser. It clearly doesn't, since everyone browsing the web from their phones is using mobile safari.

The fact that someone made that suggestion doesn't change the fact that his phone is broken.
And call me when windows mobile ships with a useable web browser. It clearly doesn't, since everyone browsing the web from their phones is using mobile safari.
Kind of what you expect from a web-tablet turned phone, isnt it?
Anyway, PIE is not unusable. It does the job, whether I am reading these forums, XDA-Developers, bloglines, or an innumerable number of other sites. Could it be better? No doubt, and that is why alternatives exist.
If you are going to buy a phone to browse the internet a small 2.8inch QVGA screened device would probably not be your first choice. Maybe the people who bought WM smartphones bought them for the numerous other uses, such as organizing their lives? Isnt that what PDA phones used to be all about?
PS:Consider yourself called. The HTC Advantage, another webtablet with a large high-res screen, ships with Opera Mobile 8.6, and the new updated version ships with Opera Mobile 9.5.
Surur

[quote=surur;1429207]...and I thank my lucky stars I am not using an iPhone.
Surur
We are thankful you aren't as well. Your well known WinCE fanboy-ness precludes you from being objective here as well:
1. Opera Mobile is no match for Safari on iPhone, and I don't care which of your chosen devices you use to run it. It cannot render a standard web page as fast or precisely as the iPhone.
2. GPS is not universal in either the WinCE, Palm, RIM nor Symbian worlds. It appears strategically in a few models, with varying degrees of success. And without subscribing to Telenav, it is no more useful than Google maps location.
3. Surur, you're resorting to SOP; trotting out one of your laundry lists of complaints (on any subject you dislike at the time) IS NO EVIDENCE of anything; anecdotal at best, and as likely defective equipment as any other explanation.
4. Build numbers - you're ducking the issue again compadre...iPhone, in version 1, is further on the design curve than WinCE after 10 years, and if you want a feature by feature only shootout, come June WinCE and the other platforms will be so far behind it will be comical.
5. For an independent assessment, from a truly business perspective, check Forbes' article (their title, not mine): The iPhone Pain Train Keeps Coming www.forbes.com/technology/2008/03/28/apple-iphone-mobile-tech-wire-bc_0328apple.html

1. Opera Mobile is no match for Safari on iPhone, and I don't care which of your chosen devices you use to run it. It cannot render a standard web page as fast or precisely as the iPhone.
Shows how much you know. Opera Mobile 9.5 does better than Safari mobile in rendering the Acid2 test, and is lightening fast.
2. GPS is not universal in either the WinCE, Palm, RIM nor Symbian worlds. It appears strategically in a few models, with varying degrees of success. And without subscribing to Telenav, it is no more useful than Google maps location.
This isone of the most outragous statements I have seen recently. For one, GPS is becoming almost standard in new WM devices, secondly any WM device without built-in GPS can use bluetooth GPS, unlike the IdiotPhone, and lastly, I must have imagined TomTom guiding me to my hotel. Have you been living under a rock for the last 10 years or something?
4. Build numbers - you're ducking the issue again compadre...iPhone, in version 1, is further on the design curve than WinCE after 10 years, and if you want a feature by feature only shootout, come June WinCE and the other platforms will be so far behind it will be comical.
I get come June feature for feature the iPhone will still be prettier, but miles behind any modern WM phone. We KNOW it will not have flash, wont have Java, wont allow multi-tasking of 3rd party apps etc. So far these is no evidence of global search, access to bluetooth, voice dialing, MMS. The list goes on and on, but at least its prettier.
5. For an independent assessment, from a truly business perspective, check Forbes' article (their title, not mine): The iPhone Pain Train Keeps Coming www.forbes.com/technology/2008/03/28/apple-iphone-mobile-tech-wire-bc_0328apple.html
Yes, that must be why Apple is cutting the price of its phone in Germany - unprecedented demand.
Surur

Surur:
#1. Acid2 and "lightening fast" - you can run all the benchmarks you want, it is real life experience and feel that count. And if you're comparing 3g to EDGE, then "lightening" but compare the 3g to WiFi and the lightening switches. Pick your poison.
#2. Outrageous - let's see - your laud GPS but rather than denying it is not widespread as a built in option, you put up a bluetooth puck - gee, let's see, just like carrying a bluetooth keyboard - how many pockets do you have. And, just like Telenav, you tout another pricey add on like TomTom - again not a built in solution without additional hardware or software.
#4. We'll let June forward sales answer this question. I learned the hard way that vast number of features, aka Tilt, does not make for a unified, simple to use, one pocket solution...it just acts like what it is, a PDA with everything bolted on like a Rube Goldberg masterpiece.
#5. That's right, don't address the authors premise, facts, or even assumptions, pick one arbitrary data point and shout. Really Surur, you can do better than that. Perhaps they're clearing inventory for the June 3g release...or, I'll give you this one, iPhone EDGE IS A MISTAKE in Europe because it is almost a universal 3g and not EDGE market. In fact, perhaps Apple should have just waited for a workable 3g chipset, but then the WinCE fanboys would have jeered that as well.
The real issue here is that Forbes is absolutely right...Apple hit the market with a right cross last June, and will deliver an uppercut this June. Face facts, you just don't like watching WinCE put so far behind the curve so quickly.
You know from years of our dueling on Treocentral, I am not and never have been an Apple fanboy...but the iPhone, MacBook, WinCE/Palm/Blackberry and Vista has proven to me there is more to life than mere statistics, benchmarks, and having to "settle" for what M$oft and the others put on our plate. I am going to stick by my signature - if WinCE is right for you, great, but it is not perfect for many folks, and deriding them as light weights or no-nothings is childish and unresponsive.

Surur is just transitioning through the turbulence of the iPhone revolution. He'll come through the other side, shiny, happy, and enjoying the next gen mobile platform every bit as much as the rest of us.
It can't be easy, having been force-fed the MS-only non-options for years, learning usability helplessness, coming to accept lack-of-integration and stability as the way things had to be.
Little beige boxes and tic-tactile bricks are hard habits to break, but glass and aluminum multi-touches will set him free.
This time next year, given some serious detox and the surrendering to a higher quality level, Surur will be watching Balmer Monkey-Boy his way across an iPhone 3G...

#1. Acid2 and "lightening fast" - you can run all the benchmarks you want, it is real life experience and feel that count. And if you're comparing 3g to EDGE, then "lightening" but compare the 3g to WiFi and the lightening switches. Pick your poison.
You must be a massive fanboy to just automatically assume Opera Mobile could not possibly be and feel faster. But then you have proven as much already. And its funny how "feel" matters more to you than actuality or reality, benchmarks be damned! The conversion to style over function is clearly complete.
#2. Outrageous - let's see - your laud GPS but rather than denying it is not widespread as a built in option, you put up a bluetooth puck - gee, let's see, just like carrying a bluetooth keyboard - how many pockets do you have. And, just like Telenav, you tout another pricey add on like TomTom - again not a built in solution without additional hardware or software.
Lets see - AT&T Tilt, Sprint Mongul, Motorola Q9, Blackjack II - seems to me built-in GPS is pretty widespread. And guess what - before it was wide-spread we used bluetooth pucks, while you can use NOTHING AT ALL!. Thank God Stevie is protecting you a keychain bluetooth puck and the horrors of carrying an extra 1.06 ounces! And since when is paying for useful software a problem or issue? You have really been brainwashed, haven't you. If its not from Infinity Loop its obviously not in your alternate reality.
#4. We'll let June forward sales answer this question. I learned the hard way that vast number of features, aka Tilt, does not make for a unified, simple to use, one pocket solution...it just acts like what it is, a PDA with everything bolted on like a Rube Goldberg masterpiece.
Yes, obviously tapping on an icon to start TomTom is way too complicated for you. When the iPhone out-evolves your capabilities there are phones built just for you here.
#5. That's right, don't address the authors premise, facts, or even assumptions, pick one arbitrary data point and shout. Really Surur, you can do better than that. Perhaps they're clearing inventory for the June 3g release...or, I'll give you this one, iPhone EDGE IS A MISTAKE in Europe because it is almost a universal 3g and not EDGE market. In fact, perhaps Apple should have just waited for a workable 3g chipset, but then the WinCE fanboys would have jeered that as well.
The real issue here is that Forbes is absolutely right...Apple hit the market with a right cross last June, and will deliver an uppercut this June. Face facts, you just don't like watching WinCE put so far behind the curve so quickly.
You Apple fanboys and your confidence in Stevie's manifest destiny are hilariously amusing.
To answer Rene - this time next year I will probably using a Xperia X1, and enjoying a screen with 2.5 times the resolution of the iPhone. I will be enjoying keeping in contact via IM while you are still struggling to keep within your 200 SMS limit and still be instantly contactable. I will be using the GPS software of my choice, vs Stevie's anointed choice, and having to recalculate your route every time you switch over to another app. I will be using Skype and SlingBox over HSDPA, while you will be stuck tethered to WIFI. I will be getting full use of my phone, while you are stuck living a Stevie's fascist dream of milking you of every drop of revenue while controlling your every move.
And I will continue laughing at people impressed with Smartphone lite.
Surur

LOL@Surur -- I'm in Canada dude, if I send 1 mms I'd have to sell my house to pay for it.
So the phone most dependent on data to do anything useful is obviously perfect for you, right. I mean, streaming google maps over EDGE must be much cheaper than buying Garmin or TomTom. Having am email client where you cant control how much of the e-mail gets downloaded or whether pictures are shown or not must be perfect. Not to mention not being able to switch off loading of pictures in Safari. And what about being forced to use "web-apps" instead of native apps.
Yep, isn't it great that the iPhone gives you so much control.
Surur

What "200 SMS limit?"
This one.
And who said no slingbox over HSDPA? I guarantee there will be.
Limitations. Not all applications will be welcome at the iPhone App Store, Jobs said. The short list of bad categories included porn, (anti)privacy, bandwidth hogs, malicious and illegal software. So that porn, illegal drugs P2P application may be out of luck.
VOIP applications will be okay but only if they work over WiFi but not over the cellular network, Jobs said.http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=1388
You are basing your guarantee on what? A you going to write it youself? Are you actually Steve Jobs?
Surur

There are two other SMS plans, one of which is unlimited, and the other of which is in the thousands. I'm subscribed to the unlimited and my wife to the other one (can't remember the number). Unless I'm missing something, it's quite common for there to be tiered SMS, no? I don't mind paying ala cart for features I use as long as I don't have to pay for features I don't use. I didn't get unlimited SMS on sprint, either, and I don't even think there was an option for such at the time.
i can't answer your other question, but when it happens I'll remind you of my guarantee. (p.s: the skype thing you are right about - AT&T doesn't want voip on its network, and all U.S. carriers suck).

Not sure why I'm wasting my time with you Surur - it must be the need to help the handicapped:
#1 - not assumed, just experience with Opera Mobile on the Tilt. It does NOT open and render pages better than an iPhone - the full page rendering and expansion of specific articles to reading size is not as seamless, and it doesn't focus as well on a specific selected article in the focus window. Glad you use Acid2 so frequently - I prefer reading NYT and PhoneDifferent myself.
#2 - again, like Hillary, rather than explain why you lied about Bosnia you just switch the topic to "what about Wright." Your complaint about no REAL GPS is a red herring - all of four devices have the built in GPS even by your own listing, and they require additional software support to be effective. It's not a cost issue; truly useful software warrants the expenditure...its just your empty-headed insistence that WinCE is so much more full feature than iPhone that is at issue.
#4 - tsk, tsk, tsk Surur...I sure would have expected more than an "oh yeah!" response from you buddy...not even an attempt to respond to the bolted together quailty of features in an un-unified fashion.
#5 - see #4. Surely you have some REAL response to the Forbes analysis...or is it just too difficult to read and comprehend a valid business publication?
Come on Surur, you can do better than spit out "fanboy" "brainwashed" and "alternate reality."
And speaking of outrageous statements, this one is beyond compare: "I will be getting full use of my phone, while you are stuck living a Stevie's fascist dream of milking you of every drop of revenue while controlling your every move." Microsoft is a PROVEN monopolist, run by a raving nutjob. Please...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc
or better still, check out Ballmer's goofy rejection of the iPhone before it racked up record sales over WinCE and the rest in only six months...sounds a lot like your current assessment of the situation...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5oGaZIKYvo
Surur - why do you schill so hard for M$oft - are you bald by any chance?

There are two other SMS plans, one of which is unlimited, and the other of which is in the thousands. I'm subscribed to the unlimited and my wife to the other one (can't remember the number). Unless I'm missing something, it's quite common for there to be tiered SMS, no? I don't mind paying ala cart for features I use as long as I don't have to pay for features I don't use. I didn't get unlimited SMS on sprint, either, and I don't even think there was an option for such at the time.
You are missing the point. I can get contacted instantly via IM, the only way you can get it with the "no multi-tasking rule" is via SMS. This means you are forced to pay more because Stevie wont let you use the phone the way you should be able to. But then real Apple fans dont mind paying more for less functionality, dont they.
Surur

Not missing your point. It's just that you have a habit of attempting to solidify your point by stating as facts things that are not true, or of stating as facts things that are as yet unknowable.
No backgrounding is annoying. It makes us (coders) work harder. However, there is a work-around, and my second guarantee is that you will be seeing apps which, to the user, appear to be background-capable (including updating their databases without being launched by the user).
Update: and this time i can tell you my guarantee is based on the fact that I am writing them, and they work.

#1 - not assumed, just experience with Opera Mobile on the Tilt. It does NOT open and render pages better than an iPhone - the full page rendering and expansion of specific articles to reading size is not as seamless, and it doesn't focus as well on a specific selected article in the focus window. Glad you use Acid2 so frequently - I prefer reading NYT and PhoneDifferent myself.
Actually rendering is near identical, but of course you would see a non-Apple solution as inferior. And you can cut and paste too. Its actually a better browser. And it works with flash lite 3 too. But you would not care about the facts, would you.
#2 - again, like Hillary, rather than explain why you lied about Bosnia you just switch the topic to "what about Wright." Your complaint about no REAL GPS is a red herring - all of four devices have the built in GPS even by your own listing, and they require additional software support to be effective. It's not a cost issue; truly useful software warrants the expenditure...its just your empty-headed insistence that WinCE is so much more full feature than iPhone that is at issue.
Still cant see the forests from your bias I see. WM SUPPORTS GPS, OSX Mobile DOES NOT. WM supports the bluetooth serial profile, and it supports the multiplexing of the COM ports. It also supports access to the hardware, which allowed the docking port-based solutions to work. Is it clear now? No matter what hardware you have, your OS of choice does not support its use, because its immature crap, and Stevie wants to control you.
And speaking of outrageous statements, this one is beyond compare: "I will be getting full use of my phone, while you are stuck living a Stevie's fascist dream of milking you of every drop of revenue while controlling your every move." Microsoft is a PROVEN monopolist, run by a raving nutjob. Please...
Funny enough the proven monopolist is giving me an open OS whereas the Think Different guy it acting all Mussolini.
Surur - why do you schill so hard for M$oft - are you bald by any chance?
And why are you defending the idiotPhone? Are you slow?
Surur

Not missing your point. It's just that you have a habit of attempting to solidify your point by stating as facts things that are not true, or of stating as facts things that are as yet unknowable.
No backgrounding is annoying. It makes us (coders) work harder. However, there is a work-around, and my second guarantee is that you will be seeing apps which, to the user, appear to be background-capable (including updating their databases without being launched by the user).
Update: and this time i can tell you my guarantee is based on the fact that I am writing them, and they work.
I believe we are talking about being instantly notified of remote events, not seeing how many IM's you missed had you been able to multi-task.
Pretend multi-tasking - says a lot about the iPhone philosophy.
Surur

I agree with some of that, but not the "immature crap," the name-calling, or the "Stevie wants to control you." Stevie wants to put maximum resources on developing the features most of his customers want. It's what good engineers do - optimize the 90% that gets used the most.
The SDK will solve some of this, and as features such as real GPS and a full bluetooth stack are demanded by more people, they will be added.
And I'd hardly call anything MS makes "an open OS."

I believe we are talking about being instantly notified of remote events, not seeing how many IM's you missed had you been able to multi-task.
Pretend multi-tasking - says a lot about the iPhone philosophy.
Surur
If my program is not running, and is launched with a notification ("you have something to do now") and can launch without opening its window, it's not "pretend" anything, as far as the user is concerned.

If my program is not running, and is launched with a notification ("you have something to do now") and can launch without opening its window, it's not "pretend" anything, as far as the user is concerned.
How would you do this? Or is that proprietary?
Surur

You have to log in. How about cutting and pasting the info.
Edit:Just googled it - so what? You will have a safari page automatically refreshing your app constantly? Rather Rube Goldbergish, isn't it?
Surur

[quote=surur;1429536]...And why are you defending the idiotPhone? Are you slow?
Surur
I must be slow, because I can't get it through your thick skull that WinCE is not the be all, end all of all converged devices anymore than the iPhone. What is a certainty is:
1. iPhone UI is better designed, integrated, and intuitive.
2. WinCE has more currently available features, but are a hodge-podge.
3. WinCE has the lead in the corporate workspace, but that lead is narrowing.
4. If iPhone is so "bad" why are M$oft, RIM, and Symbian desparately trying to copy its feature set?
5. iPhone 1.0 was vastly superior to even WinCE V (WinMob 5) and any version of Palm OS.
One other certainty - your vehement carpet bombing of all things iPhone smells of fear - the same fear of change exhibited by:
> CP/M users with MS-DOS
> Wordstar users felt from the Wordperfect onslaught
> MS-DOS users with Macintosh
> Wordperfect users with MS Word and Windows
> OS/2 users with Windows 95/98/XP
> Windows Vista sufferers with Mac-envy
I started with card decks on a CDC 6400 in 1973, and went through all of the above, and that includes the original WinCE and Palm OS, to an iPhone and MacBook. Of course, I do not have your vast experience, hardware and software omnipotence, and overall intellectual superiority, but I do have a sense of what works, and that really does describe the Apple experience. Go ahead and scream "fanboy" as long as you like, but you know the light at the end of the tunnel for your M$soft shills is the Apple freight train delivering MacBooks and iPhones faster than all the other hardware vendors.

I must be slow, because I can't get it through your thick skull that WinCE is not the be all, end all of all converged devices anymore than the iPhone. What is a certainty is:
1. iPhone UI is better designed, integrated, and intuitive.
2. WinCE has more currently available features, but are a hodge-podge.
3. WinCE has the lead in the corporate workspace, but that lead is narrowing.
4. If iPhone is so "bad" why are M$oft, RIM, and Symbian desparately trying to copy its feature set?
5. iPhone 1.0 was vastly superior to even WinCE V (WinMob 5) and any version of Palm OS.
No-one is arguing the UI at the moment. How this translates into iPhone 1.0 being "vastly superior" than WM5 I have no idea (except for the UI). I actually use the numerous features of my device, which makes WM "vastly superior" and the iPhone vastly inferior to WM and its previous incarnations. The iPhone is crippled, and crippled intentionally.
One other certainty - your vehement carpet bombing of all things iPhone smells of fear - the same fear of change exhibited by:
> CP/M users with MS-DOS
> Wordstar users felt from the Wordperfect onslaught
> MS-DOS users with Macintosh
> Wordperfect users with MS Word and Windows
> OS/2 users with Windows 95/98/XP
> Windows Vista sufferers with Mac-envy
I started with card decks on a CDC 6400 in 1973, and went through all of the above, and that includes the original WinCE and Palm OS, to an iPhone and MacBook. Of course, I do not have your vast experience, hardware and software omnipotence, and overall intellectual superiority, but I do have a sense of what works, and that really does describe the Apple experience. Go ahead and scream "fanboy" as long as you like, but you know the light at the end of the tunnel for your M$soft shills is the Apple freight train delivering MacBooks and iPhones faster than all the other hardware vendors.
You and Jack Naylor both. Maybe old age is getting to you too, and you cant handle the complexity of a full featured mobile device. You would rather swap the challenge of asking "How do I do this?" with the comfortable certainty of knowing you cant do it at all.
No more "How do I tether?" No more "How do I pair the GPS puck?" No more "Can I edit this document?" No more "How do I set a home page?" No more "How do I change my theme?" No more "Is this the best launcher?" No more "Which is the best GPS package?"
The final comfort of the grave cant be too far behind.
Surur

[quote=surur;1429667]...You and Jack Naylor both. Maybe old age is getting to you too, and you cant handle the complexity of a full featured mobile device. You would rather swap the challenge of asking "How do I do this?" with the comfortable certainty of knowing you cant do it at all.
No more "How do I tether?" No more "How do I pair the GPS puck?" No more "Can I edit this document?" No more "How do I set a home page?" No more "How do I change my theme?" No more "Is this the best launcher?" No more "Which is the best GPS package?"
:rolleyes: So, this is your definition of productivity. Spend all your life tinkering with your toy so it can do most of the same things the iPhone does? And don't give me any more BS about how your cherished WinCE can "do it all" because you know as well as I do that a Swiss Army knife is no replacement for the correct tool.
[quote=surur;1429667]...The final comfort of the grave cant be too far behind.
Surur
:D Like I said, you can literally smell the fear in your writing. My bet is that if you were even old enough to know what I was talking about, you'd still be using a Toshiba 1100+ with DOS 4.1, and shouting from the rooftops how the latest version of Wordperfect 4.2 gives you unlimited character level control over formatting without all that obnoxious WYSIWYG crap.
Maybe you can bolt an espresso machine to your Tilt and skip the trips to Starbucks as well.
BTW - not on Ensure and Depends yet :p
PS - read that Forbes article yet?

:rolleyes: So, this is your definition of productivity. Spend all your life tinkering with your toy so it can do most of the same things the iPhone does? And don't give me any more BS about how your cherished WinCE can "do it all" because you know as well as I do that a Swiss Army knife is no replacement for the correct tool.
Productivity comes from using a tool customized to me. Did you miss the part where the iPhone cant do any of those things at all? While I have choice, you have nothing.
I'd much rather have a swiss army knife than an empty pocket, which is what you've got. Calling my Tilt a toy is rather funny, when you are the one with the iTunes entertainment machine.
BTW - not on Ensure and Depends yet :p
Wont be long now, will it though.
PS - read that Forbes article yet?
You are pretty obsessed with that Forbes article, when it justs lists the opinion of analysts and things we know already. Was there any particular insight you wanted it to convey?
Surur

[quote=surur;1429733]...You are pretty obsessed with that Forbes article, when it justs lists the opinion of analysts and things we know already. Was there any particular insight you wanted it to convey?
Surur
Yes, you and the rest of the WinCE fanboys are SOL. ;)

Yes, you and the rest of the WinCE fanboys are SOL. ;)
Yes, because those 40 odd OEM's doing WM will suddenly stop making phones, and Sony is going to cancel the Xperia, which will be better than the iPhone 3G.
Actually those things are not going to happen. So while you continue using a phone that years behind in features, I will buy my next phone at the end of the year, and it will do more than your current phone can do now, or your future phone can do in the future. And if you dont upgrade, I will laugh even harder, because iPhone 1 is a real throwback to 2001.
Surur

Slowly, so even you will understand...enjoy your WinCE experience...
:brick:
:thumbsdn:
:eek:
:shake:
:stick:
:D

Slowly, so even you will understand...enjoy your WinCE experience...
:brick:
:thumbsdn:
:eek:
:shake:
:stick:
:D
You know whats really funny - the iPhone cant show animated gif's very well at all, so you probably cant see this.
Another way Stevie has let you down again. Some people will outgrow the iPhone, and for others its probably more phone than they can handle in any case.
I am sure you will enjoy your crippled device for a very long time to come.
Surur

[quote=surur;1429766]You know whats really funny - the iPhone cant show animated gif's.
Another way Stevie has let you down again. Some people will outgrow the iPhone, and for others its probably more phone than they can handle in any case.
I am sure you will enjoy your crippled device for a very long time to come.
Surur
Thanks for your kind thoughts and feelings...:rolleyes:

Surur,
You say the sony will be "better." Isn't that something that will be determined by the marketplace? Do you think it will surpass iphone in sales? Or are you speaking based on functionality, form factor, UI, etc.?

Surur,
You say the sony will be "better." Isn't that something that will be determined by the marketplace? Do you think it will surpass iphone in sales? Or are you speaking based on functionality, form factor, UI, etc.?
Functionality of course. There is no accounting for idiots who prefer style over function. It will correct the limited areas where the Tilt for example is behind the iPhone, for example a higher res screen, real 3.5 mm headphone jack and larger screen.
It will add features like DLNA UPNP support and USB mass storage. Its a great upgrade.
Surur

You understand, of course, that probably one in a million users of mobile phones wants to connect to a UPNP server? Whereas maybe 2x that can appreciate visual voicemail :-)

You understand, of course, that probably one in a million users of mobile phones wants to connect to a UPNP server? Whereas maybe 2x that can appreciate visual voicemail :-)
Thats actually not true. Its a pretty wanted feature on the XBox and PS3 for example, as it allows people to play the videos they downloaded from the net (which is a mainstream activity) on their big-screen TV, and now with this feature on their phones (the latest Nokia's have it too) they will be able to watch it on a small screen too.
Surur

Your answer is a non-sequitor.
The fact that it is a pretty wanted feature on consoles (arguably true) doesn't make it a pretty wanted feature on cellphones.
If I had to guess, the most desired features on mobile phones probably go something like:
1) reliably place and receive phone calls
2) nice bluetooth functionality (for calls)
3) phone-related features (voicemail, conference, forwarding, etc.)
3) easy, functional web surfing (U.S.) / SMS (Europe)
4) easy, functional web surfing (Europe) / SMS (U.S.)
5) music playing stuff
6) video
...
x) voip
...
...
xx) UPNP
BTW, if I am wrong, everyone please speak up and I'll be happy to write a upnp client for iphone. But sales figures on various types of phones seem to indicate that the mobile UPNP market is a little bit on the tiny side.

Hackers certainly love UPNP. The more ports they can easily and silently compromise, the better.
It's unfortunate that Microsoft, Apple, Sony, et al allow for easy rather than secure routing...

Your answer is a non-sequitor.
The fact that it is a pretty wanted feature on consoles (arguably true) doesn't make it a pretty wanted feature on cellphones.
OK possibly, but in any case their is an installed base of users of the technology, and streaming your media is pretty cool and useful. My WIFI digital photo-frame use uPNP for example to stream my photos from my desktop.
If I had to guess, the most desired features on mobile phones probably go something like:
1) reliably place and receive phone calls
2) nice bluetooth functionality (for calls)
3) phone-related features (voicemail, conference, forwarding, etc.)
3) easy, functional web surfing (U.S.) / SMS (Europe)
4) easy, functional web surfing (Europe) / SMS (U.S.)
5) music playing stuff
6) video
...
x) voip
...
...
xx) UPNP.
Your list does not reflect the market very accurately. A bit more accurately (at least in Europe and not for the geriatric market) would be:
1) Cool
2) Affordable
3) Camera
4) familiar
5) ringtones
6) games
For smartphone users the priorities are obviously different, and would include
1) good web
2) well supported
3) reliable (not just phone but data)
4) good battery life
5) keyboard
6) support legacy apps and work network
7) camera
8) cool
Surur

I won't argue about your list, but I will argue if you say that "cool" requires half the things you seem to think it does (UPNP, etc.). The sales figures simply don't match with that contention. And I dare say that sony's new phone won't match iphone sales figures, either. It will get a larger percentage of the folks who go for checkbox-lists of features, but it won't make a dent in the overall market.
Frankly, I think that in order to hit the higher-end sweetspot, the next iphone, assuming it's out in a few months, needs to have: 2x the maximum flash, 2x the program RAM, 3G, much improved bluetooth capability, and real GPS. It will still do quite well if it misses one or two of those, depending on price.

I won't argue about your list, but I will argue if you say that "cool" requires half the things you seem to think it does (UPNP, etc.). The sales figures simply don't match with that contention. And I dare say that sony's new phone won't match iphone sales figures, either. It will get a larger percentage of the folks who go for checkbox-lists of features, but it won't make a dent in the overall market.
Cool is everything to do with perception. The Razr was cool due to its styling only. What's cool for me is obviously not cool for you. Touch screen phones are cool at the moment (and remember the PRADA came first). The Motorola Ming sold a million in China in 2006, and the HTC Touch series has sold a few million by now. I doubt the Xperia has the kind of cool that will appeal outside of the smartphone market.Its going to be pretty expensive in any case. I feel however its safe to say it will sell 3-5 million in one year.
Frankly, I think that in order to hit the higher-end sweetspot, the next iphone, assuming it's out in a few months, needs to have: 2x the maximum flash, 2x the program RAM, 3G, much improved bluetooth capability, and real GPS. It will still do quite well if it misses one or two of those, depending on price.
I doubt it will have more program RAM (Apple's efforts at suppressing multi-tasking should see to that), and who knows if bluetooth will be improved (where's Apple's incentive for bluetooth OBEX and DUN?) For the market Apple is aiming at this probably wont make any difference.
Surur

Multi-tasking is more a battery issue than a RAM issue. In fact, it isn't a RAM issue at all - when memory gets dangerously low, programs are sent notifications to free what they can. And since the API supports simple serialization, one simply dumps memory to "disk" and clears it, then loads it when conditions are better. If memory gets too low, programs are terminated (and they are supposed to save their state when they are notified that they are about to be temrinated).
More memory would, however, allow for some much nicer games. (Note: my experience so far is that WM uses much more memory for a particular function than iphone or palm. Palm seems to use the least, with iphone in the middle somewhere. so memory goes farther on iphone).

Multi-tasking is more a battery issue than a RAM issue. In fact, it isn't a RAM issue at all - when memory gets dangerously low, programs are sent notifications to free what they can. And since the API supports simple serialization, one simply dumps memory to "disk" and clears it, then loads it when conditions are better. If memory gets too low, programs are terminated (and they are supposed to save their state when they are notified that they are about to be temrinated).
More memory would, however, allow for some much nicer games. (Note: my experience so far is that WM uses much more memory for a particular function than iphone or palm. Palm seems to use the least, with iphone in the middle somewhere. so memory goes farther on iphone).
RAM is a battery hog, and uses power even in suspend mode. 256 MB will use double what 128MB use, and affect standby time pretty substantially. 128 MB is today's sweet spot.
Surur

RAM is not a battery hog, big guy. It uses a fraction of what the processor or radio use, and, in fact, isn't even needed during standby (just dump the contents to "disk").

RAM is not a battery hog, big guy. It uses a fraction of what the processor or radio use, and, in fact, isn't even needed during standby (just dump the contents to "disk").
If you want your device to be responsive you dont want to be reading your app into RAM every time you return from suspend. I highly doubt Apple is doing it that way (although that would be a great way to use the time wasted on the slide to unlock screen).
The amount of power you use for RAM is a fixed cost, even if its only 5 mAmp/hour. That BY ITSELF will drain a 1400 mAh battery in 11 days. If you double that you drain the same battery in only 6 days. And thats all by itself, without any radio drain.
Surur

Doubling the RAM doesn't double the power, first of all. (unless they do it by adding a separate RAM chip).
I think sometimes it DOES "hibernate" - sometimes the post-slide popup seems to lag perceptibly. Given the tiny amount of memory and the width of the bus, reloading wouldn't take very long. Bigger issue is write cycling the flash.

Doubling the RAM doesn't double the power, first of all. (unless they do it by adding a separate RAM chip).
Thats how its usually done.
I think sometimes it DOES "hibernate" - sometimes the post-slide popup seems to lag perceptibly. Given the tiny amount of memory and the width of the bus, reloading wouldn't take very long. Bigger issue is write cycling the flash.
Unlikely that they switch off the RAM chip, as the code that handles incoming phone calls have to live somewhere, and it cant all be on the radio chip, e.g. your Caller ID code has to be on the DRAM chip, and will never be swapped out, and you cant switch of just some part of the RAM chip, you have to refresh the whole thing.
Surur

The hardware that detects incoming calls doubtless generates an interrupt that wakes up the processor. I doubt it relies on software on the actual processor to deal with incoming calls (that is, prior to the user interface turning on).

The hardware that detects incoming calls doubtless generates an interrupt that wakes up the processor. I doubt it relies on software on the actual processor to deal with incoming calls (that is, prior to the user interface turning on).
Yes, but calls cant exactly wait for the user interface to load, can it? Its a time-sensitive event, and if its too slow you end up with missed calls.
Surur

i agree. I just think that the bus is fast enough to make the wait no more than "barely perceptible."

i agree. I just think that the bus is fast enough to make the wait no more than "barely perceptible."
The bus may be, but flash is still pretty slow, only about as slow as a HDD.
Surur

I find the MS vs. Apple discussions comparing apple to oranges. Apple devotes a lot of resources to innovation with user interface and usability for a single platform which it controls. MS devotes a lot of resources into making a standard software platform available for many hardware architectures. These are two very different paths. Apple does better at innovating UI and useability, MS does better at supporting many different hardware architectures (Apple doesn't even try). You can knock MS for not being as innovative as Apple, but MS provides software that thousands of PC builders and smartphone-mobile computer manufacturers can make use of. I'm impressed with both companies. I'll be most impressed with the company that can provide software that will run on anybody's hardware, look and work great on all of it and never crash - but I'll never see it in my lifetime from either Apple or MS.

It's actually a cool and useful piece of info. I'm happy that you just shared this helpful info with us. Please stay us informed like this. Thanks for sharing.

Hello There. I found your blog using msn. This is a very well written article. I'll make sure to bookmark it and return to learn more of your helpful info. Thank you for the post. I'll definitely return.

I do not even know how I ended up right here, but I assumed this publish was great. I don't understand who you might be however certainly you're going to a famous blogger if you happen to are not already. Cheers!

Wonderful paintings! This is the type of information that are supposed to be shared across the net. Shame on the seek engines for not positioning this submit upper! Come on over and seek advice from my website . Thank you =)

I have been surfing on-line greater than 3 hours as of late, but I by no means discovered any interesting article like yours. It is pretty price enough for me. In my view, if all website owners and bloggers made good content as you did, the net will likely be a lot more helpful than ever before.

I've learn a few excellent stuff here. Definitely value bookmarking for revisiting. I surprise how much attempt you set to create any such excellent informative web site.

Pretty part of content. I just stumbled upon your website and in accession capital to claim that I get actually enjoyed account your blog posts. Any way I will be subscribing on your feeds and even I achievement you get admission to persistently quickly.

You understand thus significantly with regards to this subject, produced me in my view believe it from a lot of various angles. Its like women and men aren't interested until it's something to do with Girl gaga! Your personal stuffs nice. All the time maintain it up!

Great post. I was checking continuously this blog and I am impressed! Very useful info specifically the last part :) I maintain such information a lot. I used to be seeking this certain info for a long time. Thanks and best of luck.