Verdict reached in Apple v. Samsung case, $120 million damages to Apple

Lawsuits hurt consumers

The jury has reached a verdict in the mega-trial and circus known as the Apple vs. Samsung trial. If you've not been paying attention, Apple says that Samsung violated more patents with more devices and they should pay $2 billion in damages. Samsung feels differently, and says that Apple violated some of their patents and needs to pay. Google is saying this one is basically between Apple And Samsung, but they might kick in a few dollars to help if Samsung loses.

After deliberation, the jury finds:

  • Samsung is guilty of violating patent 5,946,647 (the autocorrect text entry patent) with all devices named in this suit.
  • Samsung was found not guilty of violating the 6.847.959 patent (Apple's Spotlight search).
  • Samsung was found not guilty of violating the 7,761,414 patent (data synchronization patent).
  • Samsung was found guilty of violating the 8,046,721 patent (slide-to-unlock) on some devices named, but not all.

The jury ruled that Samsung owes Apple $119.6 million in damages. Apple was found guilty of violating one of the two Samsung counterclaims, and were fined $158,400

It's nice to see the lawyers get richer, and it's always great when costly things like trials get added to the price of our devices.

Update: Apple has released the following statement:

We are grateful to the jury and the court for their service. Today's ruling reinforces what courts around the world have already found: that Samsung willfully stole our ideas and copied our products. We are fighting to defend the hard work that goes into beloved products like the iPhone, which our employees devote their lives to designing and delivering for our customers.

Source: re/code

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Verdict reached in Apple v. Samsung case, $120 million damages to Apple

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Now stay out of the courts. if only, sadly apple will continue these lawsuits, where as the only winners are the lawyers.

Unfortunately, I think both parties likely feel that this is just another cost of doing business. They can either add a few dollars to the price, or cut the wages of the folks making them a little and keep on doing business as usual.

Average price to consumer has been going down. Foxconn wages going up. Neither consumer or workers suffer. These lawsuits hit the bottom line. Both companies have massive bottom lines, so they don't get hurt much either.

The extremists (Apple-haters & Samsung-haters) will keep on hating. But the average consumer in the big markets (US, Europe, China, etc.) gets the strong message that Samsung has lost two lawsuits for copying Apple. That won't affect buying decisions for low-end phones (no Apple phones), but it definitely affects non-partisan high-end phone buyers.

So Samsung will lose a bit from here on out. (especially if any sanctions follow) But overall they are huge winners for copying/fast-following Apple. Apple was definitely hurt, but they're so successful the pain is fleeting.

What happens in the future is that neither Samsung or others will "follow" Apple as quickly or closely. In that respect Apple got what it wanted. It's not all they wanted, but that's life.

I think less people actually care about this than you think. Those who buy a Samsung device aren't all the sudden going to stop. And I would be willing to bet, most normal consumers have no idea about these lawsuits or "who copied who"

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Maybe. Or maybe not. Again, I'm not talking about normal consumers who want to buy sub-$200. There's no option to buy Apple there. I'm talking about those who want or aspire to buy premium. Apple fans will buy Apple & Samsung fans will buy Samsung. It's the undecided/non-partisans who I think do get influenced by the headlines. The billion dollar award was big. The dust hasn't settled on this 2nd lawsuit yet, but even a minor loss doesn't repair Samsung's copycat reputation.

This definitely hurts Samsung's attempts to gain ground in the US, China & Japan premium (emphasis on premium) markets, where they're already fighting against nationalistic and racial headwinds. Those aren't the only big markets, but they represent a huge percentage of the total phone profits.

Each company will spin this in their favor. It will take time for the appeals to run their courses. But at this moment in time it is a net negative for Samsung.

Jerry, I would like your take on why Apple hasn't or won't go directly after Google? I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of all the patents, but this verdict looks to me to be a huge loss for Apple. If Samsung can pretty blatantly copy Apple (although I don't think there is any confusion between any current devices) and build a huge worldwide market share with only a billionish dollar judgement against them, what's to stop this from happening over and over? And before anybody brings it up, I also believe Apple has copied from other company's. Does Google hold some cards and Apple doesn't want to play with fire?

I think it's the fact google is so much larger than Samsung. Apple goes after the smaller manufacturers trying to will their way into licensing deals. I don't think google would be as willing or easy going. Not to mention who knows all of the patents google has that they could potentially use against apple.

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It has to do with the fact that Google does not profit much from Android, Samsung does. Samsung has the biggest ownership of the Android device market. In fact, combine Apple and Samsung together, they control over 100% of the profits from mobile devices (over 100% because many companies are losing money).

It is easy to show the sales to juries deciding how much damage Apple have *suffered* than it is to show Google infringing on some worthless patents that nobody really cares nowadays.

Google's money maker is in the search ads. They were profiting from the default search engine in iOS and Maps: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/mar/29/google-earns-more-ipho...

There were more iOS users using Google services and staying there longer than there were Android users using Google services.

Remember a few of the ecosystem metrics, Apple still holds the top % of users who uses their devices longer.

The number will decline over time as more higher quality Android devices continue to enter the markets and better apps continue to populate the Play Store.

Eventually, the ads revenue will decline and Android will take over. It got a spike recently because Apple no longer include Google Maps by default and defaulting to Bing for Siri searches.

The courts can only serve "justice" if you can prove the defendant benefitted from copying your IP. Samsung is the only one who clearly benefitted. Analysts would argue that Google benefitted by gaining marketshare but we all know that marketshare does not equate to dollars. Apple had to target Samsung. Samsung has the money, the history and the motives to steal more than anyone.

Really, I don't know why people get worked up over this. 120 million ain't nothing for samsung, I'm sure they got that in the couch cushions. It's also hilarious how people are damning apple in this. If they had legit patents, then they had legit patents. I do think being able to patent slide to unlock is silly, but there it is. I wonder if that patent applies to googles slide to unlock. If so, I think Google should kick in to pay that fine.

Now? No, remember these cases are about devices years ago.

These are for Galaxy Nexus (the first nexus device years ago), Galaxy S2/S3, a couple of Notes and that's it for now.

Then why didn't Samsung just settle and move along? Maybe they could have gotten a better deal than potentially paying 2 billon dollars and they could just move on and keep doing what there doing now.

If I was them I wouldn't even appeal. I'd just pay the 120 million and move on. Thats pocket change for them.

You cannot settle when the other party doesn't want to. Apple refused to settle and instead, ask Samsung to pay 40$ per device for those FIVE patents. Remember, it's Apple who sued Samsung and taking them to the court. Samsung is happy to pay but they're not going to pay unreasonable amount for those patents, no reasonable party will ever do that. It's cheaper to lose the case and pay a few hundred millions than it is to pay Apple for the next 10-20 years.

In addition, Samsung won those rulings in many other countries to have most of Apple's patents declared invalid. So, it didn't make sense for them to settle at all.

Do you think 5 software patents deserves 40$ per device? That's actually insane, no other companies would do this. 40$ for ALL patents including Apple's hardware parents is probably the only reasonable justification.

Ah, gotcha. I thought that maybe there was some kind of negotiation window before the courts happened. My mistake. Still, if I was Samsung I'd not appeal. But is the worry that apple might appeal the parts they did t win?

There were a few court-mandated meetings for both companies to settle, they didn't agree to any deals.

Apple's latest statement today could suggest they're not going to appeal as they'll focus on the next lawsuit instead.

The jury made a mistake in one of the damages cost, they forgot to include the cost for one of the devices that infringed or they can choose to declare that it didn't infringe. Can't have $0 for willful infringement.

They'll do that on Monday.

If samsung settled they would have had to pay $40 per device for a few patents and some that samsung were not found to have violated. They would have ended up paying a lot more if they did . Good thing they didn't settle.
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Stop it. If you care about a multi billion dollar company getting richer and "winning" , you need to reevaluate things.

What does that have to do with anything? Apple won because Samsung was convicted of stealing their work.

It doesn't matter how rich the company, its work must be protected regardless of what it is.

I agree that some of these patents are not worth 40$ per device nor 2 billion but I agree that Apple should license and get money for it, regardless of how much they're worth.

If Apple lost and Samsung is free to steal Apple's work at any given time, that sets a precedent for every other company to do the same to each other.

At what point do you draw the line?

Right now, the biggest problem is where that line is. The US congress need to get its stick out of its butt and draw that line already.

But was not found willful, whereas Samsung was found willful on some of those patents. This was just for one patent that Samsung bought from another company, fined ~$150K.

Let's be honest most patent in use nowadays are all brought. Also I wouldn't call these patents stealing, auto correct isn't a new idea and it's been done by others before and plenty of companies like SwiftKey have there own auto correct. Maybe it's just a few Lines of codes that were same but I'm pretty sure there newer devices all ready have a work around. It's probably one of those things you don't expect to get sued for because auto correcting was done before. It's kind of the same for apples face time stuff, they probably never thought they would get sued for that because video calls been on phones for a while too. I agree you should get paid but it has to be reasonable amount and be priced fairly compared to other patents. You can argue patents for radios ie 3g etc are more innovative and are worth more than auto correct for example. It just seems like everyone is sue happy nowadays. Imagine if the person who made the 1st camera on a phone and patented and then sued everyone who put a camera on a phone. Or if someone starts sueing for camera features like burst mode or slo motion mode, we wouldnt get anywhere.

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> Let's be honest most patent in use nowadays are all brought.

Which doesn't make them any less important. The point I was making is that Apple didn't go out intentionally to infringe on Samsung's patent, which is what the jury found. Non-willful infringement is still illegal but doesn't harm the infringer as bad. They just have to license it. Samsung's willful infringement puts many options on the list, such as sales ban, triple the damage costs, etc.

> Auto correct isn't a new idea and it's been done by others before and plenty of companies like SwiftKey have there own auto correct.

You cannot patent ideas, you can only patent implementations. Apple legally owns an exclusivity on the implementation they have. It does not matter if somebody did it before or somebody else have it now, as long as Apple does it differently, they own it and nobody else can replicate what Apple does unless they license it or the patent expires in 20 years.

> I'm pretty sure there newer devices all ready have a work around.

Which effectively makes them a different implementation and therefore not infringing on Apple's patent.

> It's probably one of those things you don't expect to get sued for because auto correcting was done before.

That's what the patents database is for to find out. You cannot assume anything in US as long as the patent laws remains the same. Same thing if you break a state law that you assume was legal because you live in a different state, you still have to pay for breaking that law regardless.

In addition, that's also the difference between non-willful and willful infringement.

Not only that, if you came up with the technology at the same time as Apple, whoever file for the patents first gets that exclusivity on that specific implementation. It does not matter if Samsung came up first or same time as Apple.

> It's kind of the same for apples face time stuff, they probably never thought they would get sued for that because video calls been on phones for a while too.

Apple didn't get sued for the video calls, they got sued because of how they route the calls between two points directly. They should've known to check the database for that implementation. They lost the case twice, and now have to pay for the damage, get a license or wait for the patent to expire in a a few years.

> You can argue patents for radios ie 3g etc are more innovative and are worth more than auto correct for example.

Okay, and I agree. I'm not sure what the point you were trying to make here. Are you talking about the one that Apple was found guilty of infringing?

> Imagine if the person who made the 1st camera on a phone and patented and then sued everyone who put a camera on a phone. Or if someone starts suing for camera features like burst mode or slo motion mode, we wouldnt get anywhere.

That person can only sue for his own implementation of the camera module. If Apple came up with a better Camera implementation that is not anything like the original camera, than no, that person cannot sue Apple at all.

This has been done before, one of the most famous one is George Selden. He patented a gas engine and all of the car companies in US were paying him until Ford decided that he's not entitled to. The court agreed, saying that Selden only have protection on the original implementation of his gas engine, not everybody's else. You can learn more here: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/george-selden-patents-gas-pow...

Back to the auto correct stuff, my point wasn't that Samsung didn't copy but rather that it's one of things that you don't expect to get sued for because there's so many different methods and they probably were just too lazy to change the codes for the US model. They figured hey if they get called out for it then they'll change it but because auto correct is every where they probably figured the chance of getting sued is small and if they do get sued it won't be a big deal. Maybe you can answer the slide to unlock patent, that's the one that still baffles me, apples method was for slide to a specific point to unlock right, Samsung method was you can swipe anywhere in any direction which is a completely different method so how would it infringe if it's nothing a like. Also my 3g patent being worth more was to point out about the price apple were asking for its patent, you kinda agreed that 3g radio technology is more innovative than auto correct yet apple were demanding several times more than for each of the patents and the total of 5 added to $40 which is a lot and I was just trying to point out maybe apple is asking for far too much when other more innovative patents demand only $1 for example per device. I brought up the patent nowadays are brought because your comment which said Samsungs win was on a patent that was brought and you made it seem less. Significant because it was brought.
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> Back to the auto correct stuff, my point wasn't that Samsung didn't copy but rather that it's one of things that you don't expect to get sued for because there's so many different methods and they probably were just too lazy to change the codes for the US model.

You do understand these were the models Samsung made right after the first iPhone came out 6-7 years ago, the game changer that practically change how we use smartphones? This case is not about what we know now, it's about the time when iPhone came out 6-7 years ago. At that time, there weren't that many methods publicly disclosed at the time. Apple provided a document detailing that Samsung was paying attention exactly what Apple was doing and instantly copied it. They even detailed a few statements that Samsung made where their own implementation would be too confusing to use, Apple would have the best one to clone.

If we're talking about today's market, than yes, I can understand what you're saying but not back then.

> Maybe you can answer the slide to unlock patent, that's the one that still baffles me, apples method was for slide to a specific point to unlock right, Samsung method was you can swipe anywhere in any direction which is a completely different method so how would it infringe if it's nothing a like.

I stopped paying attention to the details after the first trial, the whole trial war just tired me out.

My understanding is that Apple's patent details the implementation of using an image to drag to unlock the screen. At that point, Samsung was using an icon to drag to unlock, that would be enough to infringe on Apple's patent. I don't think Apple's patent said it has to be precisely left to right, just as long as you drag an icon.

Google worked around this by using a pattern unlock, you're not dragging anything to unlock.

> Also my 3g patent being worth more was to point out about the price apple were asking for its patent, you kinda agreed that 3g radio technology is more innovative than auto correct yet apple were demanding several times more than for each of the patents

Oh, I know Apple was asking too much. If you do down the list of comments on this page, you'd see that I basically said Apple need to get its stick out of its butt and lower the royalties to $4 bucks per devices for majority of its patents including the hardware ones, not 40$ for these 5 patents.

> I brought up the patent nowadays are brought because your comment which said Samsungs win was on a patent that was brought and you made it seem less. Significant because it was brought.

I think patents should be devalued if it was transferred or bought, or simply outlawed. This is mainly because of patent trolls buying patents for something like $10 that nobody was using and then it was used on a offensive attack to sue other people for millions of dollars.

I'm a little biased there but I simply don't think patents deserve 20 years of protection, nor should it be allowed to used as an offensive tool when it is being transferred.

In this trial, the patent was intentionally devalued by Samsung, they wanted to show the jury that patents don't deserve billions of dollars, which they're right about but they intentionally did this to drive down the value of Apple's patents, nothing more than that. It probably was smart of Samsung to do this.

Crap, I stand corrected, I misread the first device on the list, Admire one. I thought I saw the date of August '09, not '11.

Ah well these guys can keep fighting as long as they want as long is it doesn't effect us customers. You would think eventually they would settle but when both got billions to spare the chance of settling is slim. It may be piss if apple is willing to do a Microsoft like deal with Android oems. The thing that annoys me is that Apple talk about copying etc but if they believe that then they should be sueing all Android oems imo if that's there true belief. It seems like they want Samsung because Samsung the only one big enough to cause damage but if it's truly about principal which apple keeps on saying then it doesn't matter if it's a big or small oem they should sue all of them if that's there ideal. .
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IMO, it turns Apple into a bad guy in many customers' eyes. Apple cares a lot about their reputation and in this case, they've damaged it for many folks.

A lot of my non-techie friends are like "Why would I want to buy those greedy bastards when they're suing everybody and for having a rounded corner?"

Before, they were impressed by the devices. Now, they're just going for Android devices.

Lol my non techies are not bothered, they knew about thr 1st law suit but not this one. They even say to me i know the iphone is "overpriced" (what a device is worth is upto the individual to decide) but they want It because it's apple.

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Yet they have all the lawyer fees, which get passed on to you the consumer. So unless you liking pay more for a device then no, it's not a victory. These costs get added into the cost of devices.

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Actually they did lose. They just won a little more. They had to pay out too. Either way it is pennies on the dollar for these two Goliaths.

ಠ益ಠ

How did you lose as a consumer? Worse phones? Higher prices? Fewer choices? Think about what you can buy for $300 today. Think about what you get in an iPhone or Galaxy S5 for 2010 prices. In what way did we lose?

Man! I was just happy my favorite company won (got more money in damages) in a court case, and all you guys take it as a call to arms. Calm down and be content with your favorite company's outcome.

Is it really any different than politics? Favorite candidate sounds just as silly. At least these companies provide products and services for all of their courtroom nonsense.

Apple need to lower their royalties from $40 per device to $4 per device for majority of their patents and that'll be reasonable enough for most Android OEMs to jump on that.

They certainly don't seem to have a problem paying MS billions for their patents.

It's Apple who are kidding themselves. They need to get the stick out of their butt.

I've been a fan of theirs for more than a decade but this is all just telling me they've turned into something worse that I can't support much longer.

Depends on what Google already pays for the same type of patents from other companies.

If $1 is reasonable and common among other companies, than yes, Google should only be paying 1$ per device to Apple.

As far as I am aware, Apple doesn't have that much SEPs anyway. All the patents they've sue over are non-SEPs. Sadly, these don't have to be reasonable.

Apple doesn't want royalties. They just want Samsung to stop grossly copying. Remember that the first 2 Galaxy phones were total knock-offs of the first few iPhones. None of the other Android phone makers went as far as Samsung. Apple was willing to settle with HTC.

I think Apple has learned that the patent/legal system across the globe is messed up. Patent trolls who make no real product are able to extort hundreds of millions, while those who work long, hard years to produce something real can have their products totally ripped off. That's why I think they will turn more to hardware patents in future. Those are harder to copy.

Over it... All this crap needs to come to an end. I am a bought in to Apple for computers and mobile devices but 90% of my home entertainment is Samsung. I just want products to get better and stay affordable but these pissing matches have got to end.

How do these "pissing matches" affect you? They are inevitable just like armies stockpiling weapons. They will always stockpile weapons so someone will eventually want to use them because they feel they have been wronged by an enemy or competitor. You cannot dismiss these trials without dismissing our patent system. And if you dismiss our system, you dismiss every patent by every company. Then you have every IP open and free and what incentive is there to put money in a bank if you're giving the keys to your enemy. Sorry about all the metaphors.

I know what you're saying but these pissing matches are eventually going to cost the consumer more money for the products. Some one has to fit the bill for all these legal fees and that is me. I personally don't see myself as a "fan" of any product. I will never pay to own something and be it's fan. But, I am vested in certain ecosystems and I want my money's worth and I want to see improvement because once I go all on I want it to be long term. Companies need to do the right thing, pay their royalties, or do better.

It's just the cost of doing business. If you're going to have patents you have to defend or enforce them. You can bet the jury and judge didn't understand a fraction of what went on. Life goes on. I wouldn't spend too much time trying to find winners and losers here. That's often the lawyers anyways or the fact you need to fund a legal team if you expect to compete in this field.

Samsung is a winner here... their strategy to copy willfully has been given a green light as their penalty for getting caught red handed is chump change.

Exactly. Apples legal outcome has been pitiful. Samsung stole from apple and made billions. Htc licensed from apple and is on the verge of bankruptcy. Lg, Lenovo and others are hopefully paying attention

Agree. Apple can and will use this as legal precedent, as well as all of their previous legal victories against the copycats. Plenty of copycats left to sue, I'm sure.

It's all just part of life in the big city. You copy, you get sued by Apple, Apple wins.

"It's nice to see the lawyers get richer, and it's always great when costly things like trials get added to the price of our devices."

Cost of doing business. $120 million isn't even lunch money. For either company.

But yes, this is just the start of the Apple vs. Samsung vs. Google law wars. I'm sure Apple has plenty of future lawsuits in the pipeline. It's a war of attrition, and Apple has the patents to win that war.

I don't get it. As an apple fan I try to make sure I never root for Samsung or android products but in this case, apple has failed to impress me. Companies shouldn't be taking others ideas and slapping them on their devices and call it the S5 (which is a total copy off of the 5S). They need to take these ideas and make them better, easier, more appealing, and overall, better

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Why are we blaming the lawyers? After all Apple decided to sue and Samsung decided to defend, no lawyers forced them.

Interesting article on Samsung's business model in Vanity Fair 'The Great Smartphone War'.

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