Adobe CEO responds to Steve Jobs open letter
Choosing a live interview as his platform of choice, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen fired back at Apple and Steve Jobs' open letter "thoughts on Flash".
Roughly addressing each of Jobs' points:
Narayan chuckled at the thought of Flash being considered closed. "Flash is an open specification." They're using different meanings for "open" here. Clearly Adobe owns Flash but they're fairly open about its use. It's a dependent standard.
It does not appear as though he addressed the full web question this time, but has said in the past 75% of video runs on Flash. He also didn't address the growing number of sites bypassing Flash and going directly to H.264.
Security and performance were addressed by blaming Apple for Mac OS X. Since security for Flash (and Acrobat) are an even larger concern for Windows users, we're not sure how seriously we can take him on that. We've also had enough Flash-related crashes on our Windows machine to not buy that argument either. Certainly, until the most recent version of OS X, Apple didn't provide the low-level hardware access Adobe needed for better performance.
Narayan called Jobs assertion about battery life drain for Flash "patently false". Jobs was fairly specific in separating out software decoding as being the drain. Narayan said every accusation Jobs made could be explained by an Apple proprietary lock. However, we're not certain when Apple locked Sorensen decoding out of every chipset on the planet...
Flash websites being designed for point-and-click mouse interaction versus multitouch gestures was not addressed.
In response to Jobs' "most important reason", Apple's desire not to have an intermediary exist between developers and iPhone, iPod touch, and iPad devices in the form of CS5 Flash packager-like cross-compilers, Narayan pointed to 100 apps already created in Flash and already approved for the App Store. However, he didn't address Jobs' point, which was that while easier for developers, it created a barrier towards platform feature implementation.
Countering a carefully prepared, piece-by-piece massacre of your product by someone like Steve Jobs and Apple marketing during a live interview is gutsy but probably not the wisest course of action.
Narayan also didn't try to counter Jobs fatal thrust -- that there's still no functional, full implementation of Flash on mobile despite talk of it going back to 2007. He didn't have to -- no one should think for a moment that, even if Adobe could deliver functional, full Flash for mobile at some point in the not-so-distant future, that Apple would allow it.
Again, Apple views Flash just like IE6 and ActiveX -- something that was once needed but is being surpassed by better, standards-based alternatives. That Microsoft held ActiveX and Adobe is trying to share Flash is irrelevant. To Apple, it's just another anachronism, and we know Apple's record on those.
Either way, both Apple and Adobe have now gone all in. Either Adobe ships an incredible version of Flash that blows mobile socks off world-round and gets users flocking to Android, webOS, and other alternatives by the millions, or Apple gets all the sites that matter to serve them direct H.264 and port their games over to the App Store.
The ground war has begun.
Editor-in-Chief of iMore, Executive Producer at Mobile Nations, co-host of Iterate and ZEN and TECH, cook, grappler, photon wrangler.
| Tweet |
|
|
Leave a Reply
Note: Comments must be civil, respectful, and on-topic. If a comment does not add to the conversation, if it contains spam advertising, or inappropriate language or content, it will be removed. Insulting the topic, author, staff, site, network, or other commenters will result in the comment being marked as spam and potential prevent future comments from appearing on the site. Do not post as a business or your comment will likely be confused with spam. Comments containing links may be held for moderation. Relax, enjoy, and share in the discussion.
I really wish you would have included a flash video in this post. Would have been brilliant!
Android still feels like a beta compared to iPhone os (despite the superior hardware) It's going to take a lot more than flash support to make me switch.
I think Adobe has some valid points here, much as I hate the whack-the-monkey uses Flash gets used for.
If performance is so poor, why only on Apple? Works great on Linux, (a close relative of OSX) and Windows machines using equivelent hardware. Flash has been effectively sandboxed on Linux as well.
Adobe and Apple should not be trading barbs about who provides more locked down proprietary software. They make Microsoft look like the Mother Theresa of software.
@icebike: Well said. And the article points to why flash performance is a poor experience on Mac OS: Apple didn't give full access to the hardware. Sounds about right, there.
While I doubt this will drive the iFans to webOS/Android in and of itself, its just another brick in the growing wall isolating the choice of the iFans to something other than what Apple decides. Some folks will be fine with the lack of choice, others will move along, especially as the competition narrows the gap between their feature set and iPhone OS's.
Two stories of roughly equal length.
Adobe gets a tiny sliver "above the fold". Saint Steve gets a whole page.
Here is for hoping of the death of flash
Apple actually does allow acccess to hardware accelerate Flash on nVidia GPUs now -- interesting how quickly the Gala beta showed up with support for it when they've had similar access on Linux for a while and to my knowledge shrugged at it.
http://anandtech.com/show/3682/adobe-enables-gpu-flash-acceleration-in-os-x-we-test-it
I love my iPhone... Why does it seem like Mr Jobs is acting like a brat these days? Flash - Develop something better and move on. Gizmodo - CHRIST! They TRIED to give it back... now a home has been invaded? Come on!
Focus on innovative product, and new security measures and stop acting like a three year old who is not getting his way!
Funny last time I read flash was in the high 90 percentile of video now it's 75%! Huh
icebike - Have you used Flash on Linux? It's worse than Flash on OS X. And Adobe has access to the code that powers every bit of Linux, and they still can't make it not suck on that platform.
Well, the good is....adobe will go allin in optimizing the flash player for mobile. Android is becpming better and better, it's big daddy google who's playing with apple. The bad thing...we iphone users will not see the full web experience with flash.
This will be a fight, not just flash related, apples closed system vs. Googles open system. And google just started with mobile os...1-2 years and apple will have a hard Hard time.
I love the iphone atm, even without flash, but just now, because the competition is still in early stages, but like said before... It's big daddy google os. They put all their top developers to the mobile section a few months ago.
Haven't you guys seen flash video "attempt" to run on mobile devices? Is that what you really want? Blocky slow intolerable attempts and playback, or the smooth beautiful quality we see when html5 YouTube videos run on the iPad. I'll take html5 please
Not to worry. As more and more apps go mobile and touchscreens become more and more popular, Flash will become like the dinosaurs, extinct.
In the end, it should be up to the user. After all, there is a toggle switch in system, safari that allows me to enable or disable plugins. If Flash is on there and causes headaches, I should be able to turn it off and vice versa. As I have stated elsewhere, let's see how it does on Android. If it runs well, Apple has some explaining to do. If it sucks, Adobe has some explaining to do.
@lars
i don't know the video you mentioned, but this must have been the old mobile flash player. flash 10.1 mobile is coming soon, is getting much better.
And everyone who says html works so smooth.
Surf this HTML(5) Browsergame from EA with extensive graphics with your Iphone and you will realize that html with javascript is far beyond "smooth". lol
http://www.lordofultima.com
I've been running some flash "remotely" from my PC to iPad using Jump Desktop. Works really well actually - slight choppiness, depending on the extend of the graphics, but very acceptable. I imagine, it would pretty fast on if it were native... well on iPad, not sure on iphone.
@icebike uhm...works well on linux? have you ever really used it for more than 10 minutes? Flash is the #1 reason why I can't keep firefox running for over 12hr without it locking up...flash is a piece of junk on linux...much less a piece of junk than it used to be, yes...but still a piece of junk.
This is incredibly biased. For every counter-point Narayan made, you added your own little comment about how he was wrong. I understand this is an IPhone/Ipod Touch Blog, but still... Oh, and I agree with Ghostface147 about flash on Iphone.
Steve Jobs is being a baby. Since he can't control Flash, he doesn't want anyone to have it. I guarantee that if he controlled Flash it would be on the iPhone and iPad and would only be on Apple products. Steve Jobs wants to close the internet, not keep it open. The iPhone is proof of that, look at their totalitarian rule over it and it's App Store.
If Flash dies, how are they going to program web games? How are they going to animate web cartoons? It's cheaper and faster to animate in Flash than it is to hand draw every single frame of animation.
Flash will never go away, it may exist in another form down the road in the future, but it will still be there. It may even be doing the work while some cross compiler or HTML5 converter takes the credit. But it will still be there.
Seriously we don't need flash for safari but maybe some apps would be nice, like not everybody wants Flash but 60% would find it useful to be an app
Steve is kicking ass
I want to read Adobe Ceo opinions not Apple (or peach) addicted Rene.
Don't blame the messenger here.
Steve wrote a well thought-out letter.
Adobe's CEO decided to wing it and give oral remarks live.
And you expect the two to be presented equally?
When Adobe's CEO takes the time to fully rebut Steve's points in a letter, then maybe you'll get what you want. But in the meantime, don't blame TIPB for not writing about something that's not there.
I'm not much of a flash fan, but to counter your counters, Rene...
1) Flash is less "open" than HTML5, but more "open" than the iPhone native app SDK and environment. If the debate is on allowing Flash in Mobile Safari, Jobs wins. If it is on native app development, Narayan wins. Section 3.3.1 -- the main sticking point here -- pertains to native apps, so point to Adobe.
2) Flash does have a high percentage of video traffic, but that is going to drop precipitously if Adobe cannot get a credible mobile Flash runtime out there, and soon. 1/2 point each.
3) Security/Performance. Flash on the Mac is much worse than Windows. (I"ve had a mixed bag with Linux -- better performance, but more crashes.) Flash's security record is far from unblemished, and their track record on OSX is such that Apple should be skeptical of its performance on the iPhone. I would bet Apple shares a little blame here, but it is still Adobe's baby to fix. Point to Apple.
4) Battery life. Both sides being disingenuous. Software decoding would seem to be more of a drain than hardware decoding, but that comparison would only apply to Flash Video vs h264. Since there will be no Flash runtime, Flash video decoding would likely be irrelevant, and for Flash applications, it definitely would be, unless Apple has done some background research on cross-compiled from Flash applications, and there is no evidence that they have, and the fact that there are Flash-originated Apps in the App store suggests any drain is not significant. Since Apple is stretching the truth more, half point to Adobe.
5) Flash websites being mouse driven is another totally irrelevant charge, unless you are arguing the Flash runtime in the browser, which, again, nobody is -- Adobe lost that fight a year ago. Otherwise, developers adjust. My favorite iPhone game of all time is Civilization Revolutions. It was a port from a PC/PS/XBox game, and guess what? The developers put in the control scheme most appropriate to each targeted device. That is what even minimally competent developers do. The CS5 SDK would allow this, if not for section 3.3.1 and 3.3.2. Point to Adobe.
6) Did the 100 or so Flash-based apps in the App Store hold back OS 3.0? Will they hold back OS 4.0? No? How about the Unity or Monotouch games? Still no? Developers who chose Flash would have to wait for Adobe to update Flash's compiler, so there would be for individual applications, but the platform itself, as long as cross-compilers used only public APIs, would march along unimpeded. Point to Adobe.
Much as I hate Flash, Adobe scores more points here simply by lying less. Lying may be too strong of a word, but Jobs is really borrowing from the classic Microsoft FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) playbook -- speaking out of both sides of his mouth, and mixing runtime and native issues whenever it suits his argument, rather than speak from a solid technical or consumer base.
At the end of the day, it does not matter -- Apple is going to win because they are 10x Adobe's size, the iPhone, restrictive as it is, is a good product, and Adobe needs Apple more than Apple needs Adobe. That does not make Jobs' statements any more ethical or truthful.
Did Jobs set himself up for a big fall?
May 19 & 20, 2010 is Google's I/O Conference where they will be debuting Android v2.2. If Adobe shows up to that party with a kickass version of Flash that they can demonstrate live to the world then it will be the beginning of the end of the iPhone OS as the dominate mobile OS. Period.
The only place people are talking about this flash crap is tech blogs. People in the real world don't give a rat's ass and guess what phone they have or want? iPhones.
@dev, nice analytics.
Except the conclusion. Adobe doesn't really need apple or flash the iphone os. It worked years without those being together and so it will do in future. The problem apple has... They are in the need to convince the webdevelopers to use less flash and more h264 and html5.
Problem is, flash is allready so big, an incredible amount of userbase developing for it. It has the best tool to create nice looking rich internet apps or games, web animations, banner etc.
why should i stick with the uncomfortable way, coding every animation, no real development gui, no hardware gpu support when flash itself gives me all this stuff and with thousands of availabe source files, tutorials allready available, videos with cue points, alpha transparency etc.
For who, for steve jobs, so he can sell more iphones? He's a big big liar, he will tell you every BS so he can make more money and noone should have control over his iphone os.
It's his iphone os, his appstore, his ipad.... And it will be his fail with such a politic, not just regarding flash.
I'm generally OS agnostic; I've used Linux for over a decade and have it as the main OS on my laptop, but I rely on Microsoft products for my day job and more recently I have been trying out Macs and like their design and simplicity.
Flash is pathetic on Linux and is one of the reasons why I have been using Linux less, as I cannot get it to play in full screen without grinding to a halt. The same flash websites work ok on the Macs and the way I see it Linux has no restrictions on access to hardware yet Adobe still hasn't managed to get it right on that platform either.
I would love to see a greater move to standards that have multi-vendor support and that's why I think it's good that Apple is pushing web standards in this case. Sure Apple can be seen as being hypocritical with their closed platform in other areas but that is no reason to not support better web standards.
Johnsen
You really think Devs LIKE Adobe? They want to run to an open standard. HTML5 Canvas is being welcomed by the developer community. You see the big corporate developers? They're running to HTML5 right now. You think the smaller devs won't follow?
Flash will still be fine for web vector designed sites that HTML4 can't render but when HTML5 gets better acceptance you'll see a fast transition too. I predict this whole fight ends when Adobe finally admits that open sourcing Flash is a better path, and then Apple will finally let Flash on their devices.
BTW, you're other points are ad hominem attacks and not really worth addressing. Adobe should be on top of HTML5 Canvas dev tools; instead, they've left the door wide open. Apple should ram through it. I wish Steve would release iHTML5 and iCanvas... the best HTML5 and Canvas developing tools in the world.
Rob: "Android still feels like a beta compared to iPhone os (despite the superior hardware) It’s going to take a lot more than flash support to make me switch."
What has Apple done to some of you? Beta?? So... The ability to multitask and customize (just to name a few) something the iphone CANNOT do, yet you say Android is in beta?
Re: "full web experience" with Flash, I've been running Click2Flash with Safari since it came out to try to get rid of the slow, stupid Flash panels all over the web, and wish I had a similar solution for IE at work. Exept for Hulu, there's nothing major missing in your web experience if you shut down Flash, and Hulu will take care of the shortly. Steve's a genius and a fine communicator. Narayan's a boob.
What is annoying is alot of online colleges use flash based apps. Jobs has been pushing his ipad as an educational device. I would have loved to have a device i could access my online classes and my e-books. This was a dumb move to not allow flash.
What's funny is today on Engadget Microsoft is saying the same thing that Apple is saying.
I just got my nexus 1. Put sense on it with flash. Its not as bad as everyone is saying. Android still feels beta? I'm coming from an iPhone and pre. This is the most fun I've had wit a phone since day 1 of the iPhone
I would agree with Adobe's CEO statement that they have "different views of the world". The unfortunate truth for Adobe is that Apple's stance on Flash is largely logical and Narayan's "cross-examination" did very very little to counteract Job's well laid out argument.
Adobe MUST prove Apple wrong by "successfully" implementing flash on a mobile phone. Microsoft recently chimed in against Adobe as well.
The only argument that is valid by "flash-lovers" is that users should be able to choose their poison (i mostly agree). However like Adobe, Apple is a for profit business that will do things that are in the best interest of shareholders. Apple has it clear that allowing flash to highjack iPhone is not were its at.
Good day very cool site!! Guy .. Excellent .. Amazing .. I'll bookmark your site and take the feeds also?I am happy to find numerous helpful information here within the submit, we need develop extra strategies on this regard, thank you for sharing. . . . . .