Attack of the iClones: HTC Touch Diamond - Wait-a-Thon!

iclone_htc_touch_diamond.jpg

[Note: This a a Wait-A-Thon post! Comment on this post -- or any post tagged "Wait-a-Thon" -- for your chance to win a $100 iTunes Gift Card!]

Usually we wait for This Week in Smartphone Schadenfreude to mock review the competition (such as it is), but if they bring the hype, we'll bring the satire, special-edition style.

Samsung, Nokia (yeah, I'd forgotten about them as well...), and RIM (and RIM) have already sent in their iClones, and now it's HTCs turn to make mid-2008 look like early 2007 all over again... Ludites and gentlemen, the HTC Touch Diamond.

(At least I think it's the Diamond, they've pre-announced like 100 different Touch trademarks lately, so it could be the Pro or the Cruise or even the Cubic Zirconium for all I can tell...)

Speaking of 2007, as we all know when Steve Jobs took the stage at Macworld and pulled the iPhone from his pocket, it's form factor was exactly like every other Palm, RIM, and WinMob device out there, with a tiny screen, application independent tic-tactile keyboard, always unstylish stylus, and and OS and interface straight out of 2001.

Wait, no it wasn't. El Jobso unveiled a revolutionary new device with a giant, hi-res screen, multi-touch input, and an interface the likes of which the industry had never seen before. But they (and we) have certainly seen it since -- reflected funhouse mirror-like in almost every signature device from every company released post-iPhone.

Read on!

Now HTC does deserve some orientation-sensing, hardware-accelerated props (assuming they cough up non-crippled drivers this time). According to WMExperts.com and HTC CMO John Wang, they've replaced Pocket IE with Opera (imagine Dell doing that with Firefox on the Windows desktop...), improved on the default virtual keyboard to the point of earning an official Engadget "messy", and very wisely done everything they can to hide Windows Mobile, even though the device sports the latest, greatest (all things being relative) version 6.1. (And boy must that have the furniture flying around Ballmer's tiny office...)

Instead, they've layered on custom interfaces to "Multi-Touch Cover Flow"... er... single "TouchFLO 3D" their way through photos, put little green numbered dots to count down emails on their envelop icons, and in a myriad other ways joined the "inspired by Apple in Cupertino" crowd. Still, it's actually, you know, a decent interface, and the animation is borderline gorgeous (or it would be if the demo unit didn't sport the responsiveness of a 386 running Vista).

Want to do anything more than the slicken-ing veneer allows, however, want to tweak a setting to access the fabled power of the platform, and its straight back to Windows Mobile 6.1.

Surprise, surprise, if you pile whip cream atop a turd sunday, all that shiny sweetness is meaningless the first time you dig in and really take a bite.

The eponymous touch screen is the old school, resistance type (oh, stylus, where art thou?) but the paltry (and already Apple abandoned) 4GB internal storage capacity is probably sufficient, what with Microsoft creating and abandoning user-unfriendly content services like MSN faster than you can say PlaysNoMore. And it's a good thing since there isn't much to watch on that beautiful, if cramped, 2.8" VGA screen, given the positively tiny 900mAh battery guaranteed to last through a full day of absolutely no use anyway. (For the truly masochistic, of course, a micro-SD expansion will allow an extra moveable part to break and the comforting knowledge that all pressure data is safely stored on something the size of a pinky nail -- no chance of losing that! UPDATE: turns I miss-spec'd myself -- HTC to consumers: no SD expansion for you! 4GB is all you get!)

On the plus side, however, at least HTC didn't copy the iPhone's hardware design. Nope, this baby draws straight from the Zune! Want to zoom a photo, just swirl(?!) your finger around the squirle!

I get the feeling that when Steve Jobs said it would take the competition 5 years to catch up to the iPhone, he was being uncharacteristically generous. While spec-for-spec the HTC Touch Diamond offers a few huge leap ahead in pure smartphone power, it's horribly out-dated OS, lack of interface innovation, and design straight out of Microsoft's failed X-Mas 2007 music player book is still too little, too late.

Like Nokia, RIM, Palm, and pretty much every other device maker on the planet, HTC really needs to get in the game, and that doesn't mean just trying to throw as many specs as possible at a device and hoping some cohesiveness sticks (it never, ever does), or out-innovating each other in iCloning the iPhone. It means having a unique, cohesive visual from the get go, and it means out-innovating Apple. Sadly, the only one proven capable of either these days is Apple. (Soon to be witnessed yet again when they drop the all-but-announced iPhone 3G later this year.)

[Digg link]

Will the Diamond pull folks away from the iPhone?

Rene Ritchie

Editor-in-Chief of iMore, co-host of Iterate, Debug, ZEN and TECH, MacBreak Weekly. Cook, grappler, photon wrangler. Follow him on Twitter, App.net, Google+.

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There are 140 comments. Add yours.

Dieter Bohn says:

Oh boy, this should be good.
For the record, I think the Diamond is AWESOME, although I'm disappointed that they traded a memory expansion slot for the 4gb. Sure, that's easier for a lot of consumers, but I'd rather have, if not both, the expansion slot. microSD cards are getting up to 16gb these days...

cmaier says:

this isn't even dignified. Was it written specifically with surur in mind?

surur says:

Its going to be a pretty joke when the HTC Diamond outsells the iPhone 3G in Europe, just like the HTC Touch did the iPhone Obsolete.
Surur

surur says:

this isn't even dignified. Was it written specifically with surur in mind?
No,Rene is naturally a clown.
Surur

cmaier says:

Some of the screenshots i saw of the diamond looked pretty nice to me. Sure, it didn't have apple's fit & finish, and WM is still WM, but the overall package might very well be "good enough."
And i sure wish iphone supported micro-sd or sd or any form of additional storage, movable parts or no. Especially once we have third party apps, i can think of a million cool uses for it (not to mention the general benefits of more storage).
I wouldn't sneeze at a VGA screen, either (assuming it had all the other characteristics of the iphone screen in terms of brightness and outdoors viewability, and didn't kill the battery too much). I'd really like to see vga side-by-side with the iphone screen; as it is I can't see dots on the iphone screen, so it seems it would mostly be useful to me in viewing pdfs a full page at a time, but not so useful for movies and such.

Rene Ritchie says:

It's not undignified, its completely ridiculous, which is sorta the point.
It's really disappointing that "iPhone Killer" seems to be the only thing on the minds of industry insiders and journalists alike.
Who cares if it outsells the iPhone in Europe? iPhone hasn't sold well in Europe. How about trying to outsell RIM in businesses, or the iPod in music? How about instead of copying the iPhone's feature set, they try to come up with the next great feature set everyone else rushes to copy? How about instead being "me too" and "we're next" we try for a little "hello!" and "we're first!"
Sure, it's easier to copy than to create (heck, it's made both MS and Apple billions), and if I'm a clown or a buffoon for making fun of it, so be it, but with every blog post and commenter shoehorning in "iPhone Killer" and "better than iPhone" and "beats the iPhone" and whatever else the Diggerati can come up with, the above is certainly not alone in its ridiculousness.

Rene Ritchie says:

@Dieter: Did I miss-spec myself? I thought the Touch Diamond had micro-SD?
@Cmaeir - The iPod Nano is 202dpi (compared to the iPhone 160dpi) and that screen, albeit tiny, is *amazing*. 2.8" is a bit small for me, and I think for the iPhone interface as it stands, but VGA at 3.5" would be very nice (and as I said on the podcast last week, 720p would be outstanding).
Not sure what that would do to battery life either. If the Touch Diamond really only has a 900mAh battery, along with all the radios it sports, that would be a HUGE question mark in my mind.
And as I mention in the article the animation was gorgeous, but I'm not sold on 3rd party grafts as the future of Windows Mobile. Like running VM where, or back in the Win 3.1 days, on a desktop layers OSs can be annoying enough. On a mobile, I want stuff written as close to the metal as possible...

cmaier says:

Billions of dollars have been made copying Apple in the past. Shouldn't be a surprise.
There will eventually be an actual iphone killer that is innovative and doesn't take its design cues from iphone. The one thing apple has in its favor is that it knows this, and it is undoubtedly trying to make sure it's the source of this iphone killer.
But it will probably come from someplace we'd never suspect.

surur says:

How about instead of copying the iPhone's feature set, they try to come up with the next great feature set everyone else rushes to copy? How about instead being "me too" and "we're next" we try for a little "hello!" and "we're first!"
This is the XDA II, released in September 2003.
I had one of these for about 1 year. It has a 3.5 inch QVGA screen, soft keyboard, PIE, 128MB RAM and a 400 Mhz processor. It was made by HTC BTW.
If you for one second believe Apple did not go out there and decided to improve on what has already been done in the market, you are a pretty delusional fanboy.
There is no new inventions under the sun. Even by Apple.
Surur

cmaier says:

those things look a lot like ipaq's.
everyone improves on what comes before, and adds the occasional new things. iphone does change the paradigm enough so that it can be considered innovative. And the differences between iphone and what came before are larger (though not maybe more significant) than the differences between this new round of "iphone killers" and the iphone.
Not sure why that matters.
I guess rene's point is that it would be nice if one of these other companies, rather than starting with iphone and making incremental improvements in features, attempted to rethink the entire problem and come up with an entirely different solution.
And it would be nice. But it will take time. First, companies aren't set up that way. Second, most companies don't have sufficient resources in more than one or two of human-machine interface design, software, and hardware. Finally, incremental improvements pay the bills while the deep thinkers play around with their big innovations.

Rene Ritchie says:

Which is why I said both MS and APPL copy, and they do. (Just ask Xerox). Heck, my old HTC Jornada looked like that, and so did my Palms before that.
The difference boils down to Apple's focus on user experience. They look at what's on the market and they try to make it easier and more enjoyable. They make the device they themselves want to own.
By contrast, many other manufacturers seem entirely focused on speeds and feeds and checking off feature lists. Devices become hodge-podges of this-or-that mistakenly assumed to competitive feature set, which is often incompatible and unclear.
HTC makes beautiful stuff, no doubt about that (even when they manufacture for others). And, yeah, Minority Report had Multi-Touch, Apple bought Cover-Flow, there were MP3s in phones long ago, Pocket IE and Blazer predate MobileSafari, and there were even ways to make calls before the iPhone! (I know!)
The huge difference is that Apple wants to the iPhone, and so does everyone else (when they really should have clear, unique, compelling visions all their own -- now that would be competitive -- that would kill!)

surur says:

HTC made the iPaq's too.
I guess rene's point is that it would be nice if one of these other companies, rather than starting with iphone and making incremental improvements in features, attempted to rethink the entire problem and come up with an entirely different solution.
The WM market did go through this process, and found its customers preferred smaller, more pocketable phones, and hard keyboards. Apple is primarily trying to sell a PMP, hence its large screen fascination, but one must remember the iPod shuffle outsells the iPod Touch, probably by orders of magnitude.

Rene Ritchie says:

@cmaeir-
I haven't had a chance to look at Android much yet. Any chance that, coupled with HTC's impending hardware, could be another look at the smartphone problem?

ArrowHead says:

@Dieter: Did I miss-spec myself? I thought the Touch Diamond had micro-SD?
You mis-stated things multiple times, but that was probably because you were too busy looking for ways to skew things towards your own uninformed and biased opinion.
For the record, NO there are no expansion card slots, YES there IS a stylus, and the 900mAh battery will be upgradeable to a larger one as an option when the Diamond is made available.
Parody is one thing. Blowing stats out your *** after reading a single article and watching a 30 second video? That's not parody, it's closed minded-ness.

surur says:

The huge difference is that Apple wants to the iPhone, and so does everyone else (when they really should have clear, unique, compelling visions all their own -- now that would be competitive -- that would kill!)
Your last paragraph contradicts the preceding ones. First you say everyone copies, and the iPhone was not born out of the split skull of Zuess, then you demand that other manufacturers create something completely unique "all their own"
Do you really think none of these companies were interested in user-friendliness and looking after their customers?
If there is anything Apple excelled in, its eye candy. They however did not invent it, so have no claim on owning it.
TouchFlo 3D is a novel solution to the UI issues on WM, and bare only a passing resemblance in some screens to the iPhone. It however remains very attractive, and I thinks more so than the iPhone. It certainly has a lot more "wow" factor, and it seems, looking at iPhone sales, thats what its all about.
Surur

cmaier says:

@cmaeir-
I haven't had a chance to look at Android much yet. Any chance that, coupled with HTC's impending hardware, could be another look at the smartphone problem?
I tend to doubt it; if it's the best software in the world, with the best interface ever imagined, it's still designed in a sandbox and thrown over the wall to the hardware makers.
The greatest innovations tend to come when people look at the whole system. RIM email, iphone visual voice mail, exchange activesync, etc. couldn't have come without thinking about the server side, for example. Multi-touch, proximity sensors, accelerometers are all integral to the iphone UI and sdk, etc. The great palm innovation (i argue) was the manner in which it synced.
Google is working with hardware makers, of course, but the minimum hardware requirements don't lead me to believe that, at best, the great android innovation will be the way it integrates the web into everything it does.
But, again, who knows.

Rene Ritchie says:

@ArrowHead,
The SD was a last-minute addition, since I kept going back to the fact that they couldn't be only shipping 4GB, and WinMob devices typically have an SD slot, so I looked for spec lists and found Micro-SD on them, which made sense given the 4GB and the precedence. Thanks for the correction and any others would be greatly appreciated.
@Surur:
Two takes on the same problem can be unique, as can two photographs of the same event. It comes down to vision, which may just be what everything is coming down to.
But you raise some interesting issues, why does the latest Windows Mobile 6.1 need UI solutions? Isn't UI one of the cornerstones of an OS? Would the Touch Diamond be substantially different if it used Microsoft's UI out of the box, and if so, why, and if so, why again? Microsoft no doubt is providing what their extensive market research and profound business experience tells them their user base wants. Why would HTC graft TouchFLO 3D on top of that?

Rene Ritchie says:

@cmaier: That's an excellent observation, re: designing the whole banana. I know from the D conference, Jobs and Gates disagreed on that, but I can't help but think you're spot on about that. Single acts of will by integrated designers working on complete solutions.
BTW- Given the recent comments about a "Zune Phone" coming out of the Microsoft/Danger acquisition, maybe Redmond will be stepping off the platform-only and onto the plate of an integrated device themselves? Granted, the near duplication of the iPod with the Zune doesn't give massive amounts of hope, but Danger might inject a little innovation...

ArrowHead says:

eww. it has a stylus?
I know! THe horror! Giving us a choice like that, it's just terrible!

surur says:

But you raise some interesting issues, why does the latest Windows Mobile 6.1 need UI solutions? Isn't UI one of the cornerstones of an OS? Would the Touch Diamond be substantially different if it used Microsoft's UI out of the box, and if so, why, and if so, why again? Microsoft no doubt is providing what their extensive market research and profound business experience tells them their user base wants. Why would HTC graft TouchFLO 3D on top of that?
Because the UI is designed for busy business men who like to keep up with their calender, appointments and e-mail, not for Joe Bloggs in the street.
The consumer market is pretty big though, and HTC wants a slice of that pie.
Or are you actually implying there is one UI thats best for everyone?
Surur

surur says:

At least the stylus fits inside the body, unlike this monstrosity.
Of course, maybe cmaier prefers writing Chinese with his finger. That will be real fast, wont it.
Surur

Rene Ritchie says:

Interesting how, on Windows Weekly this week, Thurrott and Mary Jo Folly were discussing Microsoft's play for the consumer market with Vista, and how this may be one of the major setbacks of the OS. Why bother, was their attitude, since business was by far MS' biggest "pie".
They even suggested splitting the OS up into consumer and business versions (in a far less confusing and seemingly random manner than they currently are).
Do you think Microsoft and Window Mobile, and the market, would both be better served by separate Windows Mobile Business and Windows Mobile Consumer OS's? Or is grafting on something like TouchFLO 3D solution enough?

cmaier says:

I know! THe horror! Giving us a choice like that, it's just terrible!
but it's not a choice. if it's there, it's because it's needed (i assume). Relics of WM's UI? tiny little buttons to click, etc.? Or for third-party applications not written specifically for diamond?
I've used various treos, samsung sph-i500 (palm phone), kyocera palm phone before that, ipaq, and an old everex pocketpc before that. I get stylii. I missed the stylus for the first week i switched over to the iphone - i didn't need it, but my hands were so used to pulling it out of its slot before doing anything.
I gotta say, i'm happy not to have to do that anymore.

ArrowHead says:

Granted, the near duplication of the iPod with the Zune doesn't give massive amounts of hope
There's another Zune bash from the guy who doesn't do his research. Gotte set you straight AGAIN!
Apple did not invent the MP3 format. They did not invent the MP3 player either. In fact, dozens of models were on the marked before the ipod. I hated all of them. The ipod came out, used a BRILLIANT marketing plan that popularized the MP3 player, and sold like hotcakes. I still hated it. I've have refused to buy an mp3 player for years because I hated all the available models. With the release of the zune I have owned a 30, and currently an 80. Now tell me, if it's suck a duplication of the iPod, why do I like it? hmmm
The only single innovation that iPod had was the circle pad navigation wheel. that's it. Every other feature of the ipod was ALREADY on the market. And personally I don't like those wheels at all. Meanwhile you bash a player with a lower pricepoint, larger screen, more storage capacity, and things like an all-you-can-eat subscription service. For a ripoff, I sure am having a hard time finding an iPod with 80 gig of storage, a screen this large, and a digital all-you-can-eat music subscription service.
Different people have different needs, and often different products are needed to fulfill those needs. Apple doesn't do it for me. Therefore, a product with SOME of those features that actually addresses my need for large storage and a bigger screen is a huge improvement, NOT a duplication.

cmaier says:

surur -
I haven't seen anyone actually asking for a stylus for the iphone. Of course, I don't write chinese, so i have no idea how hard or easy that is to do by finger. Im not exactly clear why a stylus would make that much faster, however.
In any event, if giving up the stylus means i can't write chinese, then I'm willing to make that tradeoff :-)

ArrowHead says:

but it's not a choice. if it's there, it's because it's needed (i assume). Relics of WM's UI? tiny little buttons to click, etc.? Or for third-party applications not written specifically for diamond?
I've used various treos, samsung sph-i500 (palm phone), kyocera palm phone before that, ipaq, and an old everex pocketpc before that. I get stylii. I missed the stylus for the first week i switched over to the iphone - i didn't need it, but my hands were so used to pulling it out of its slot before doing anything.
I gotta say, i'm happy not to have to do that anymore.
That's the point of preferring WM for an OS. It gives you a choice due to the many different apps out there like WAD, where you can customize your UI any way you like, including making nice big buttons. I have a Treo700wx that I have to whip out the stylus once a week at max.

cmaier says:

There's another Zune bash from the guy who doesn't do his research. Gotte set you straight AGAIN!
Apple did not invent the MP3 format. They did not invent the MP3 player either. In fact, dozens of models were on the marked before the ipod. I hated all of them. The ipod came out, used a BRILLIANT marketing plan that popularized the MP3 player, and sold like hotcakes. I still hated it. I've have refused to buy an mp3 player for years because I hated all the available models. With the release of the zune I have owned a 30, and currently an 80. Now tell me, if it's suck a duplication of the iPod, why do I like it? hmmm
The only single innovation that iPod had was the circle pad navigation wheel. that's it. Every other feature of the ipod was ALREADY on the market. And personally I don't like those wheels at all. Meanwhile you bash a player with a lower pricepoint, larger screen, more storage capacity, and things like an all-you-can-eat subscription service. For a ripoff, I sure am having a hard time finding an iPod with 80 gig of storage, a screen this large, and a digital all-you-can-eat music subscription service.
Different people have different needs, and often different products are needed to fulfill those needs. Apple doesn't do it for me. Therefore, a product with SOME of those features that actually addresses my need for large storage and a bigger screen is a huge improvement, NOT a duplication.
as someone who owned a creative nomad long before the ipod came out, i'd say the other ipod innovation was that it didn't completely suck.
I can't even remember how many times i had to "rebuild" my "library" because songs would continuously vanish. I didn't buy an ipod until the third generation, because, on paper, the nomad had better specs. When I finally did, I was more amazed at how the darned thing just "worked" (at least in comparison to the nomad). Though I missed on-the-go playlists.

cmaier says:

That's the point of preferring WM for an OS. It gives you a choice due to the many different apps out there like WAD, where you can customize your UI any way you like, including making nice big buttons. I have a Treo700wx that I have to whip out the stylus once a week at max.
but you can't customize third party software programs. What I mean by that is, for example, a given game may be designed for the stylus, or an email program may not take advantage of the touch interface and make everything big enough to use your finger, etc. It's not just an issue of the gui widget sizes.
I appreciate what HTC has done here, but it will be interesting to see if third parties take advantage of it.

ArrowHead says:

as someone who owned a creative nomad long before the ipod came out, i'd say the other ipod innovation was that it didn't completely suck.
I can't even remember how many times i had to "rebuild" my "library" because songs would continuously vanish. I didn't buy an ipod until the third generation, because, on paper, the nomad had better specs. When I finally did, I was more amazed at how the darned thing just "worked" (at least in comparison to the nomad). Though I missed on-the-go playlists.
Yes, early devices sucked and had very limited storage. iPod made a good deal of improvement in the software since then (and firmware), but in that time the software and firmware of other brands were improved also. I don't consider this innovation on iPod's part, any more than I consider the zune I own to be any sort of innovation either. I just see it as the best iteration of the current progress this technology currently has after trying everything out there. In 10 years, It might be an iphone or sansa or creative flash unit hanging at my side. Or, it might be another zune. I get a lot less wrapped up in brand names than I do with quality.
I do know that if storage capacity was not as big an issue for me, I'd probably have an iTouch right now. If screen size was MORE important, I'd have an Archos. etc...
Different people need different things. That's why crap-tacular threads like this one where people try to prove something the be-all-end-all or oppositely try to DIS-prove it make me so annoyed.

surur says:

surur -
I haven't seen anyone actually asking for a stylus for the iphone. Of course, I don't write Chinese, so i have no idea how hard or easy that is to do by finger. Im not exactly clear why a stylus would make that much faster, however.
Why don't you try writing your name with your finger and a pen. The benefits of a stylus should be clear, which is why they were invented thousands of years ago. Finger painting are for children with poor dexterity.
In any event, if giving up the stylus means i can't write chinese, then I'm willing to make that tradeoff :-)
You may, but a billion Chinese may not.
Surur

ArrowHead says:

but you can't customize third party software programs. What I mean by that is, for example, a given game may be designed for the stylus, or an email program may not take advantage of the touch interface and make everything big enough to use your finger, etc. It's not just an issue of the gui widget sizes.
I appreciate what HTC has done here, but it will be interesting to see if third parties take advantage of it.
You cannot customize third party software, but most third party software is designed for as many systems as possible. I have yet to have any realistic issues with this. I have to use the stylus if I am working in Xcel, however if I had the smartphone version I could just use the d-pad. At the end of the day, anything I need to do one handed I can. Anything I need the stylus for I usually am sitting around with a free hand anyway.
From the look of it, they're really trying to make everything in the Diamond finger friendly. The stylus is most likely for exactly what you said, for people like me who would want to dig around in WM 6.1

Rene Ritchie says:

ArrowHead,
I would humbly suggest that the click-wheel was one of, and not even the major, innovations of the iPod.
Although "not suck" is pretty succinct, the iPod highlights how consumer electronics benefits from a combined hardware/software/services ecosystem.
I had other MP3 players for years and seldom used them simply because moving and managing content with them was horrendous. iTunes made something so simple, my most tech-un-savvy relative could use them. This brings us smack back to user experience.
Being powerful doesn't matter if no one can use that power. Having options doesn't matter if they confuse people. Part of Apple's genius is purposefully restricting options to increase usability.
As individuals and power users, we can disagree with this, run Mac entirely via Terminal or rock a Open Moko, but in terms of consumers, the market is pretty much speaking. (And I wouldn't condescend to say they are all fooled by eye-candy-- consumers can be remarkably insightful at times. I personally like Vista tons more than XP, and like it's eye candy, where many consumers seem to not embrace it as much as I).

Rene Ritchie says:

I can (and do) write Chinese, and as anyone who knows anything about spoken Chinese knows, the difference in dialects means that when someone from Shanghai wants to communicate with someone from Shenzhen, they're pretty much limited to -- you guessed it! -- drawing out characters with their fingers...
BTW - What's with the Zune not supporting PlaysForSure? Was Microsoft contractually forbidden from making their own PlaysForSure device to protect their OEM's investment?

Rene Ritchie says:

@ArrowHead:
I was referring to the components used in the Zune, which were reportedly almost exactly the components used in the iPod at the time, one of the reasons suggested for why Apple is going back to making some custom chipsets (perhaps with PA Semi).

cmaier says:

Why don't you try writing your name with your finger and a pen. The benefits of a stylus should be clear, which is why they were invented thousands of years ago. Finger painting are for children with poor dexterity.
You may, but a billion Chinese may not.
Surur
The flaw in your argument is that when writing my name with my finger on an phone, it would presumably be so that the phone can understand it, not so that another human being can understand it.
Speedwise, my finger seems as adept as a pen, if not faster. I just can't write on college-ruled paper that way :-)
I'm not opposed to pens when they make sense - i use an intuous wacom tablet on my pcs and macs for illustrator and photoshop. I just don't see anything other than disadvantages when used on a phone, however. Heck, every single stylus-device i owned eventually developed "loose stylus syndrome." And it's annoying to have to pull the thing out and arrange things in my hands. And it leads to developers developing tiny little UI elements to aim for.
As for the billion Chinese, I will rely on them, not you, to defend their interests. If they have something to say on the issue they are free to chime in.

ArrowHead says:

BTW - What's with the Zune not supporting PlaysForSure? Was Microsoft contractually forbidden from making their own PlaysForSure device to protect their OEM's investment?
I'm not sure. In general, digital rights management is something I am 100% opposed to. I like that both Apple and Microsoft are both offering more and more DRM free music as time goes by. Things like this whole "plays for sure - maybe" won't ever need to happen again.
I agree more with a lot of your more recent posts, which seem to greatly go against the grain of your original post. It seems you get smarter when you stop being cocky.

cmaier says:

I'm not sure. In general, digital rights management is something I am 100% opposed to. I like that both Apple and Microsoft are both offering more and more DRM free music as time goes by. Things like this whole "plays for sure - maybe" won't ever need to happen again.
I agree more with a lot of your more recent posts, which seem to greatly go against the grain of your original post. It seems you get smarter when you stop being cocky.
DRM sucks. Buy your music from amazon.

ArrowHead says:

Heck, every single stylus-device i owned eventually developed "loose stylus syndrome."
That's actually the one thing about the Diamond that made me say "Oh, Cool!". It's got a little magnetic lid to the stylus compartment, so it cannot fall out.

Rene Ritchie says:

@Cmaeir,
No Amazon MP3 for us in Canada yet. (Not official iPhone either, of course... But taxes? We got tons of those!)

Bad Ash says:

I just love threads like this....

marcol says:

Want to do anything more than the slicken-ing veneer allows, however, want to tweak a setting to access the fabled power of the platform, and its straight back to Windows Mobile 6.1.
Don't worry, the battery will run out before you get that far.

Rene Ritchie says:

@Bad Ash:
Threads where you post could win you $100 from iTunes? :)

surur says:

The stylus is actually pretty cool on this device - if you remove it it unlocks the phone, and if you remove it during a phone call the note app automatically opens.
Surur

Cool Cat says:

iPhone rules, iclones drool! :-D

Rene Ritchie says:

@Surur:
Does the stylus itself have any special tech in it (the way, say, Wacom's do), or is the device doing the heavy lifting?

surur says:

@Surur:
Does the stylus itself have any special tech in it (the way, say, Wacom's do), or is the device doing the heavy lifting?
I'm sure its the device which detects the removal of the stylus. Its probably just a tiny micro-switch, but its nice of them to add it.
Surur

Dyvim says:

The Touch looks like a nice device but for me just has one thing holding it back: the OS. I'm so over WM for the time being. Maybe in a year or two I'll come back to the fold. HTC has tried to imitate the iPhone's interface, but did you watch in the video when they're swiping photos and other things? There's a delay and then the item moves after the swipe is complete. I love how on the iPhone, the photo (or album cover or weather page or whatever) starts to move almost as soon as I start the swipe and sticks to my finger tip if I decide to switch directions. It's as if I'm really swiping an actual sheet or card out of the way.
I love the weather applet on the Touch though. That's some serious eye candy. They one-upped the iPhone on that for sure.
But the pseudo-cover flow where you flip through the album covers one at a time by pressing next (and which shows the next couple albums but not the one you just flipped past) looked pretty lame IMO.

cmaier says:

someone should put accelerometers in a stylus. Probably need a tether. Wii in your pocket.

WatersWest says:

Looks like a heckuva device. However, the main advantage for WinMob for me was always Exchange ActiveSync. Now that it is coming to iPhone, no real need to stick with WinMob and ALSO have to carry a separate iPod.

GFONG says:

I have the follow questions hope that someone can explain to me:
Why you guy are so excited about the Diamond. Does it have anthying really innovative in hardware side which we can't find in any device? (LG KS20 has the similar look and feels.)
Does it have any killer app? (TouchFLO is a joke. I don't want to use my dirty hand to touch the screen then put the screen on my face or vice verse.)
How is the battery life? How is the performance? (From my experience, the performance of most HTC devices are slower than the similar specification devices.)
Lastly, for those who said Diamond is good, I would like to know how many of you will buy it at this price point?

AnteL0pe says:

I was reading about this device yesterday an until I was about half way through the spec sheet I was impressed. Running winmo is a huge drawback as is the limited storage, the crappy touchscreen and the small battery to name a few. For me this isnt the right device, though I'm sure some longtime winmo users will love it.
What I don't see this device doing is challenging the iPhone's dominance as an advanced phone for the everyday user.
Everyone is playing catchup while apple is readying their next release... Where haven seen this before... Hmmmm... Oh ya it was MS trying to catch up to Mac OS 10.2 while apple was releasing 10.5 and what was the OS X killer MS had? Vista, and we all know how well that has been received.

surur says:

I have the follow questions hope that someone can explain to me:
Why you guy are so excited about the Diamond. Does it have anthying really innovative in hardware side which we can't find in any device? (LG KS20 has the similar look and feels.)
VGA screen, touch sensitive d-pad, accelerometer, and common things like GPS and FM radio.
Does it have any killer app? (TouchFLO is a joke. I don't want to use my dirty hand to touch the screen then put the screen on my face or vice verse.)
If Touchflo 3D does not do it for you, its certainly not the device for you.
How is the battery life? How is the performance? (From my experience, the performance of most HTC devices are slower than the similar specification devices.)
We'll have to see. The graphics accelerator will certainly help with playing videos or DirectX games for example. About battery life, the Touch Dual with a 1120 mAh battery seems to score poorer when it comes to most talk and standby time than the 900 mAh Diamond
Touch Diamond
Capacity: 900 mAh
Talk time:
Up to 270 minutes for WCDMA
Up to 330 minutes for GSM
Standby time:
Up to 396 hours for WCDMA
Up to 285 hours for GSM
Video call time: Up to 2.41 hours for WCDMA
(The above are subject to network and phone usage.)
Touch Dual
Battery 1,120 mAh rechargeable Li-polymer battery
Talk time:
Up to 180 minutes for UMTS
Up to 300 minutes for GSM
Standby time:
Up to 250 hours for UMTS
Up to 180 hours for GSM
Up to 1.78 hours for video call
And people have not been complaining about the battery life of the Touch Dual.
Lastly, for those who said Diamond is good, I would like to know how many of you will buy it at this price point?
It does not meet my needs, I need a keyboard, but I may get it for my wife, who's ancient iPaq 6915 is close to death.
I was reading about this device yesterday an until I was about half way through the spec sheet I was impressed. Running winmo is a huge drawback as is the limited storage, the crappy touchscreen and the small battery to name a few. For me this isnt the right device, though I'm sure some longtime winmo users will love it.
What I don't see this device doing is challenging the iPhone's dominance as an advanced phone for the everyday user.
HTC sold 3 million Touches, and expect to sell many millions of Diamonds. At which point will you say the iPhone has been challenged?
Everyone is playing catchup while apple is readying their next release... Where haven seen this before... Hmmmm... Oh ya it was MS trying to catch up to Mac OS 10.2 while apple was releasing 10.5 and what was the OS X killer MS had? Vista, and we all know how well that has been received.
In which way exactly do you expect the iPhone 2 to exceed this device (except storage obviously)?
Surur

cmaier says:

It doesn't need a stylus ;-)

Rene Ritchie says:

How are they getting better life at 900 than at 1120? OS management? Hardware side mojo?

Rene Ritchie says:

iPhone 3G might also have a *slight* edge in media ecosystem...

surur says:

How are they getting better life at 900 than at 1120? OS management? Hardware side mojo?
Do you remember those new lower-power 3G chipsets Apple was waiting for? Did you think only Apple would get to use them?
Surur

surur says:

iPhone 3G might also have a *slight* edge in media ecosystem...
Only the smaller legal one, and if this phone comes with flash lite (as suggested) then not even there.
Surur

Rene Ritchie says:

flashlite != ecosystem
(Here's some bonus stuff on Flash in general, not all of which I think is/will be the case, but much of which is often overlooked by the OMGZflashVIDZ!1 crowd... http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/05/07/flash_wars_adobe_fights_for_air_with_the_open_screen_project_part_3_of_3.html

surur says:

flashlite != ecosystem[/URL]
When you are talking about Hulu it does.
Any way, thats a pretty FUD article, written from the perspective that Apple controls the mobile internet. In truth its still early days yet, and if I can get a flash player that can play yahoo music and video in browser, as I can on my desktop, I would be pretty happy.
Surur

Rene Ritchie says:

Is Hulu available in the UK? We're IP blocked here in Canada.
If Flash becomes the new DRM platform for the virtual streaming Hulu set, I will become even less impressed with it.
(BTW- QT ion MobileSafari plays audio and video very well. I often click on Twitter links to listen or watch a podcast...)

marcol says:

Is Hulu available in the UK?
No
Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States
Hulu is committed to making its content available worldwide. To do so, we must work through a number of legal and business issues, including obtaining international streaming rights. Know that we are working to make this happen and will continue to do so. Given the international background of the Hulu team, we have both a professional and personal interest in bringing Hulu to a global audience.
If you'd like, please leave us your email address and the region in which you live, and we will email you when our videos are available in your area.

surur says:

Is Hulu available in the UK? We're IP blocked here in Canada.
If Flash becomes the new DRM platform for the virtual streaming Hulu set, I will become even less impressed with it.
(BTW- QT ion MobileSafari plays audio and video very well. I often click on Twitter links to listen or watch a podcast...)
Yes, plenty of Quicktime content on the internet, isn't there. Not like flash or anything...
Surur

marcol says:

But they are.
Illegally, I presume.

surur says:

Illegally, I presume.
Who knows.... They did not say ;) It may be perfectly legal in China.
Surur

wesingreen says:

Surer wrote: "HTC sold 3 million Touches, and expect to sell many millions of Diamonds. At which point will you say the iPhone has been challenged?"
Answer: When they can sell that many in just 5 countries not 50, and when they can sell Touches for $499 + a two year lock-in, not give them away with a free pair of wireless headphones, as they did in the UK.
Apple has sold nearly twice as many iPhones in a shorter period, in just 5 countries and 5 carriers.
Compared to the iPhone, the original Touch was a flop. However, I'm sure that HTC will also manage to offload a few million Diamond's to the same suckers who bought the last version.

marcol says:

Who knows.... They did not say ;) It may be perfectly legal in China.
Criminals:
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All video links point to content hosted on third party webites. Users who upload to these websites agree not to upload illegal content when creating their user accounts. SurfTheChannel does not accept responsibility for content hosted on third party websites.
... but nice ones:
We made the site for fun not for profit. If you would like to make a donation then please make it to Cancer Research UK as they are a very worthwhile charity. We must stress however that we are in no way affiliated with Cancer Reseach UK, we just think they do good work and need the cash.

surur says:

Surer wrote: "HTC sold 3 million Touches, and expect to sell many millions of Diamonds. At which point will you say the iPhone has been challenged?"
Answer: When they can sell that many in just 5 countries not 50, and when they can sell Touches for $499 + a two year lock-in, not give them away with a free pair of wireless headphones, as they did in the UK.
Apple has sold nearly twice as many iPhones in a shorter period, in just 5 countries and 5 carriers.
Compared to the iPhone, the original Touch was a flop. However, I'm sure that HTC will also manage to offload a few million Diamond's to the same suckers who bought the last version.
That must be why Apple had to give up pushing their $500 unsubsidised locked phones - the huge success.
The suckers are the ones who bought iPhone Obsolete at $$499 when cheap, subsidised iPhones were just months away.
Do you think AT&T will be kind enough to give you a $200 rebate too, like Apple was forced to do their gift card?

mobileman says:

Is there a keyboard on this ultra-expensive device? I dont think I would want to use a soft keyboard with a 2.8 screen.
HTC basically has made a pretty overlay for windows mobile. The problem ofcourse is what happens when you open up a 3rd party app. Back to the ugly.
HTC should just make their own OS.

mobileman says:

That must be why Apple had to give up pushing their $500 unsubsidised locked phones - the huge success.
The suckers are the ones who bought iPhone Obsolete at $$499 when cheap, subsidised iPhones were just months away.
Do you think AT&T will be kind enough to give you a $200 rebate too, like Apple was forced to do their gift card?
I guess I'm a sucker. I have been using and loving my iPhone for almost a year now (a record for me).

wesingreen says:

I love the way you always dodge the real issues, Surer. How many iPhones do you think Apple would have sold had it been available in 50 countries and every carrier under the sun?
Face it. The Touch was a mediocre product and sold in mediocre numbers. This new effort, the Diamond, looks a little prettier and has a few more bells and whistles, but it's still a cobbled together compromise, a glossy package hiding the hideous truth within: Windows Mobile 6. It still doesn't work that well, as HTC's own video of the laggy interface reveals.

wesingreen says:

I love the shock in the reporter's voice as they stumble upon the Windows Mobile Start menu in this hands on video from the launch:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=htc%20diamond%20hands%20on&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv
Note how many times the Diamond fails to respond to the demonstrator's touch or doesn't react smoothly, look at how the web-broswser zooms in but fails to fit the text on the screen properly, and revel in the inconsistency of the UI as you move from app to app.
Half-baked.

wesingreen says:

I guess what I really dislike about the Diamond is that it's a dishonest product. It's trying to kid consumers that they're getting something which rivals the iPhone in terms of user experience, and it does it by hiding away an operating system that most consumers have rejected - namely, Windows Mobile.
It reminds me of a used care salesman in a cheap suit.

surur says:

Those are obviously preproduction units, but they have scared Rene enough to put up this post, and you two to argue about it.
The iPhone has failed in Europe, this device wont.
Surur

wesingreen says:

Actually, Surer, you're the one who's been running around trolling about the iPhone for the past 18 months on just about any forum which which will give you a voice.
Actually, the only reason I even posted here was that I wanted you to waste a bit more of your time, as that seems to be the only defense against a troll.
It's my first time posting here, and the reason I have stayed away previously is that almost any thread is immediately hijacked by you and your anti-iphone rants.
The only reason I referenced the Diamond and pointed to those videos was to show how uncritically accepting you are of anything that can potentially be used to attack the iPhone.
"Pre-production" units. Yeah, right.

surur says:

Actually, Surer, you're the one who's been running around trolling about the iPhone for the past 18 months on just about any forum which which will give you a voice.
Actually, the only reason I even posted here was that I wanted you to waste a bit more of your time, as that seems to be the only defense against a troll.
It's my first time posting here, and the reason I have stayed away previously is that almost any thread is immediately hijacked by you and your anti-iphone rants.
The only reason I referenced the Diamond and pointed to those videos was to show how uncritically accepting you are of anything that can potentially be used to attack the iPhone.
"Pre-production" units. Yeah, right.
So the HTC Diamond shattered your 8 month slumber? Shocked you no longer have the prettiest phone (you never really had a very functional one, did you?) Feeling your EDGE only GPS less phone is a bit obsolete. Maybe feeling you even overpaid a bit, maybe even way overpaid?
At least you can make your own ringtones now though... Right?
Surur

Rene Ritchie says:

Surur,
Do you think the HTC Touch Diamond will sell more units in Europe by this time next year than the iPhone 3G?

cmaier says:

Hey, surur, as the official MS spokesperson around here, what's with these articles saying MS is going to build piracy filters in to zune and mobile devices to prevent me from listening to my unapproved mp3's? That doesn't seem very neighborly of them.
Updated: i guess unapproved mp3's are ok, but not unapproved videos.

wesingreen says:

So the HTC Diamond shattered your 8 month slumber? Shocked you no longer have the prettiest phone (you never really had a very functional one, did you?) Feeling your EDGE only GPS less phone is a bit obsolete. Maybe feeling you even overpaid a bit, maybe even way overpaid?
At least you can make your own ringtones now though... Right?
Surur
You're not listening, Surer, as usual. It wasn't the Diamond that prompted me to post, it was you and your trolling.
You think I'm having buyer's remorse about the iPhone? Give me a break.

cmaier says:

I think I'd have buyer's remorse if I bought an expensive phone that refused to play videos I recorded myself unless I got permission from NBC.

Rene Ritchie says:

The telcos in Canada are remarkably greedy, high prices, low service. New companies came out with per-second billing and unlimited data, and the old guard was forced to match them (or create boutiques to rival them). Then they bought them, and the per-second billing and unlimited data disappeared.
Scary similar to how the Amazon MP3 situation may play out, and the concessions already wrung from MS...

surur says:

You're not listening, Surer, as usual. It wasn't the Diamond that prompted me to post, it was you and your trolling.
While I would love to take credit for bringing you back to smartphoneexperts, I find the coincidence of your return and the launch of the Diamond a bit too much to stomach.
Face it - you want one and you know it!
Surur

wesingreen says:

Face it - you want one and you know it!
Confirmation, as if it were needed, that you are truly delusional.

mobileman says:

Here is a report from somebody that spent some hands on time with the device.http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-touch-diamond-hands-on/
To sum up......."While we were admittedly playing with a pre-production unit, we came away slightly…unimpressed."
Surur, you take this stuff a little to seriously.

Rene Ritchie says:

Given the basic principles of projection, wouldn't that mean Surur really, truly, deeply, surely wants him some hot iPhone action?

whatever7 says:

Why don't you try writing your name with your finger and a pen. The benefits of a stylus should be clear, which is why they were invented thousands of years ago. Finger painting are for children with poor dexterity.
You may, but a billion Chinese may not.
Surur
Are you stupid or something. You can write Chinese just fine on the iPhone. It takes 3 minutes to unlock it and install the Chinese pinying input software. I could have written this sentense in Chinese on my iPhone but you won't understand it.
BTW too many of your iPhone related posts are straight up trolls. Can you at lease spend 200 bucks amd get a refub iPhone so you can write more accurate trolls? What's the matter you don't have 200 bucks? Or your dignity won't allow you to touch any Apple products?

tschertz01 says:

So far I'm not impressed by this phone. Now talk amongst yourselves.

surur says:

Here is a report from somebody that spent some hands on time with the device.http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-touch-diamond-hands-on/
To sum up......."While we were admittedly playing with a pre-production unit, we came away slightly…unimpressed."
Surur, you take this stuff a little to seriously.
Or
The TouchFLO 3D interface is, in a word, amazing. If you thought the original TouchFLO skin was impressive (or even unimpressive) than you’re in for a big surprise here. This is, without a doubt, the most un-Windows Mobile-like Windows Mobile interface we’ve ever seen, and that’s a good thing. The graphics, which rely on their own 3D accelerator chip, are stunning, and the entire user experience is exceptionally well thought through. Hyper-intuitive design is the term than comes to mind, with most every action, from contact scrolling to music selection, thought through from the perspective of a uninformed user. It’s not dumbed down, it’s just simple and straight forward. One of the most impressive features is the way that the browser automatically resizes zoomed chunks of text for easy reading and consumption. Think Mobile Safari, but even more readable. The introduction of the Touch Diamond before the Raphael or Touch Pro Dual also makes sense, as HTC is clearly trying to showcase the innovations they’ve made in the Touch UI arena before moving on to more extensive hardware revisions. That’s not to say we wouldn’t have loved a TyTN III or Mogul II announcement, but when viewed from a marketing and customer orientation perspective, their process starts to make a bit more sense.http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-world-press-event-wrap-up/
Surur

surur says:

Are you stupid or something. You can write Chinese just fine on the iPhone. It takes 3 minutes to unlock it and install the Chinese pinying input software. I could have written this sentense in Chinese on my iPhone but you won't understand it.
Whatever,
Did I say you cant write Chinese on the iPhone? No.
Did I say it would be easier with a stylus. Yes.
Reading comprehension, whatever, reading comprehension. They teach it in school.
Surur

marcol says:

A view that's a bit less schizophrenic than BGR's:
http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/reviews/review.phtml/3120/4144/htc-diamond-smartphone-first-look.phtml
Conclusion:
Although we weren't able to test every facet of the HTC Diamond (GPS, camera quality) what we saw was very impressive.
HTC has somehow managed to take a Microsoft device and make it everything but - a good thing in our mind.
This is a consumer smartphone that packs more specs, and if HTC can sort out the lag issue, more punch than the iPhone in all areas. The only thing it appears to be lagging is the audio and video prowess of Apple's smartphone.
If you aren't fussed about multimedia and just want to stay connected on the go, this is certainly one to watch.
The HTC Diamond is out in June in the UK.
Comparisons to the first gen iPhone rather than the one it will actually be competing with, obviously.

Rene Ritchie says:

It's incredible, and disheartening, to see such a backlash against WinMob 6.1 from reviewers and especially manufacturers. This isn't the ancient Garnet (which I don't think has an end-to-end skin like TouchFLO available?), but a new, just-shipping OS update.
Is this a problem with how Microsoft positioned their current-gen UI? Or is this flaky manufacturers who, rather than deploy WinMob phones, think they need another iClone and will cram whatever they have to onto poor WinMob to achieve it?

Bad Ash says:

Someone just kill this thread already...

gadgetluva says:

lots of flaming in here, good read for my long train ride to work. Anyways, the hardcore fanboys of each side (surur and rene, i'm looking your way...) are quite ridiculous. There are things that WM and iPhone do well and things they aren't so good at. iPhone is great at multimedia, internet, and looking cool. Wm6 is great at productivity, efficiency of tasks, and customizability.
My favorite thing about WM6 is the homescreens. Nobody else has come close to offering the power, customizability, and useability of the WM6 Today/home screen. Being able to do a Google Search, seeing my tasks/calendar, being able to dial directly from the homescreen, and launching programs from one central area is just so powerful, useful, and efficient. Also, having a big digital clock is something that I require that is right there as well. iPhone fanboys, you can argue this asmuch as you want, but the truth remains that for efficiency of tasks (search, PIM, dialing) and display of important information, the iPhone gets beat hands down. Just having google search on my homescreen is enough. The phone is already ringing for restaurants I looked up on my blackjack using google (or even live search) from my homescreen in the time it takes iPhone to load Google.
My favorite thing about iPhone is the user interface. It just works, its quick, and it truly was revolutionary. This is also true of Safari...I don't even have to explain why Safari is better (besides currently being stuck on EDGE, having wifi is moot...but 3G will change all of that). WM users can try to copy the interface as much as they want, but in the end, it falls way short of the "just works intuitively" design that is iPhone. Yes, WM is arguably more powerful (in breadth of applications available, particularly for business users) and definitely more customizable (so far) but at the cost of useability to the average consumer.
There you have it folks, a reasonable comparison of the strengths of each device (IMO).

bennysangel says:

lots of flaming in here, good read for my long train ride to work. Anyways, the hardcore fanboys of each side (surur and rene, i'm looking your way...) are quite ridiculous. There are things that WM and iPhone do well and things they aren't so good at. iPhone is great at multimedia, internet, and looking cool. Wm6 is great at productivity, efficiency of tasks, and customizability.
My favorite thing about WM6 is the homescreens. Nobody else has come close to offering the power, customizability, and useability of the WM6 Today/home screen. Being able to do a Google Search, seeing my tasks/calendar, being able to dial directly from the homescreen, and launching programs from one central area is just so powerful, useful, and efficient. Also, having a big digital clock is something that I require that is right there as well. iPhone fanboys, you can argue this asmuch as you want, but the truth remains that for efficiency of tasks (search, PIM, dialing) and display of important information, the iPhone gets beat hands down. Just having google search on my homescreen is enough. The phone is already ringing for restaurants I looked up on my blackjack using google (or even live search) from my homescreen in the time it takes iPhone to load Google.
My favorite thing about iPhone is the user interface. It just works, its quick, and it truly was revolutionary. This is also true of Safari...I don't even have to explain why Safari is better (besides currently being stuck on EDGE, having wifi is moot...but 3G will change all of that). WM users can try to copy the interface as much as they want, but in the end, it falls way short of the "just works intuitively" design that is iPhone. Yes, WM is arguably more powerful (in breadth of applications available, particularly for business users) and definitely more customizable (so far) but at the cost of useability to the average consumer.
There you have it folks, a reasonable comparison of the strengths of each device (IMO).
I agree with you. That is why I like WM, yes it is the worst, but like you said I love to be productive, I need my task management, and I am software junky. You cant get that with any other OS. ;)

marcol says:

There you have it folks, a reasonable comparison of the strengths of each device (IMO).
Perhaps, but which devices? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have compared the iPhone with a Treo/Blackjack type device. I've only watched one video once of the HTC Diamond, but a lot of what you like - simple dialling or Google search from the home screen etc - seems to be absent, not least because there's no permanently exposed keyboard (no physical keyboard at all). I'd be tempted to say this is HTC's play for the iPhone, multimedia space, but it seems crippled as a multimedia device by low storage capacity and a very small battery.

JGold says:

My favorite thing about WM6 is the homescreens.
Don't look now, but HTC has practically killed the Today screen that you are raving about. There's nowhere to put your Google search bar unless you disable the HTC Today app which is kind of defeating the purpose.

marcol says:

There's nowhere to put your Google search bar unless you disable the HTC Today app which is kind of defeating the purpose.
Thanks. I thought that might be the case, but didn't like to say because I wasn't too sure from the video I watched. Add in the absence of a keyboard and this is about as un-Treo-like as you can get. Given that it's also very limited as a multimedia device, that doesn't leave much at which it actually excels (web browsing perhaps, although the screen is isn't the biggest). Jack of all trades I guess.

surur says:

There is still a today screen, because there is still a today item on the start menu. HTC ensured the preeminence of their interface by using a Home button, which would take you to their TouchFlo interface.
WM is all about flexibility - the first WM devices did not have keyboards, just like Palm PDA's did not have keyboards. Things have evolved since them, but saying WM is only useful when tied to a keyboard does it a disservice.
The reason all these companies make WM devices (and they are not all iPhone clones - about every form factor under the sun exists in WM) is that its a mature OS with good hardware support, with many built-in features, its cheaper than developing their own OS, is already supported by the carriers and it sells well.
The world is not black and white people, and not everyone wants an iPhone.
Surur

JGold says:

There is still a today screen, because there is still a today item on the start menu. HTC ensured the preeminence of their interface by using a Home button, which would take you to their TouchFlo interface.
That may be true. However, the "convenience" as mentioned by gadgetluva is no longer a plus since now you need to "go to" the today screen as an extra step, just like you need to launch a browser on the iPhone which brings you the ability to Google search.
The world is not black and white people, and not everyone wants an iPhone.
And the same can be said for WM devices. Correct?

gadgetluva says:

Don't look now, but HTC has practically killed the Today screen that you are raving about. There's nowhere to put your Google search bar unless you disable the HTC Today app which is kind of defeating the purpose.
I'm not talking about the Diamond right now, I'm talking about the standard WM6 OS. I should have been more clear.
I hope that not every manufacturer decides to make devices that mimic the iPhone...like I said, the iPhone is the master of flashy, easy to use, multimedia orientated smartphones, but not one at all for productivity. As I've stated many times before, I'll get an iPhone once it gets 3G and GPS and native tasks (I can do without native tasks as long as a company like DeveloperOne comes out with something I can have a To Do list). Everyone praises the iPhone for what it has, but not enough is said about what it lacks.

gadgetluva says:

Perhaps, but which devices? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have compared the iPhone with a Treo/Blackjack type device. I've only watched one video once of the HTC Diamond, but a lot of what you like - simple dialling or Google search from the home screen etc - seems to be absent, not least because there's no permanently exposed keyboard (no physical keyboard at all). I'd be tempted to say this is HTC's play for the iPhone, multimedia space, but it seems crippled as a multimedia device by low storage capacity and a very small battery.
Sorry, I was referring to general WM6 devices. I did mention "blackjack" at one time in my post but didn't really focus on it. The Diamond is, as Rene puts it, an iClone. Nice to play with and look at, but when it comes down to it, not as useable as a Blackjack or Treo.

surur says:

And the same can be said for WM devices. Correct?
Of course. If you look at the numbers, rather than the media coverage, everyone wants a Nokia.
Surur

mobileman says:

Or
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-world-press-event-wrap-up/
Surur
He still did not seem to like it very much. Touchflo is neat, but it really is just Windows Mobile with a new coat of paint.
Here is another not so great hands on.......http://www.jeffkirvin.net/2008/05/07/htc-diamond-is-fatally-flawed/

surur says:

He still did not seem to like it very much. Touchflo is neat, but it really is just Windows Mobile with a new coat of paint.
Here is another not so great hands on.......http://www.jeffkirvin.net/2008/05/07/htc-diamond-is-fatally-flawed/
BG was just disappointed because he expected more devices, not just the one.
Secondly,Kirvin did not actually have his hands on the device of course, or even see it himself. However there is no denying the device has it flaws, but you are not actually implying your god iPhone is perfect, are you?
Surur

surur says:

BTW, do people realize the UI of the phone is consistent with MS's plans for WM 7, ie the so-called Twist UI, where you navigate side to side and up and down? Its a further advancement on the UI of the T-Mobile Shadow and the WM 6.1 standard UI.
Its designed for greater discoverability of features, which is rather nice.
Surur

mobileman says:

BG was just disappointed because he expected more devices, not just the one.
Secondly,Kirvin did not actually have his hands on the device of course, or even see it himself. However there is no denying the device has it flaws, but you are not actually implying your god iPhone is perfect, are you?
Surur
Actually, BGR said he was uimpressed by the diamond.
No, I dont think the iPhone is perfect.

GFONG says:

BTW, do people realize the UI of the phone is consistent with MS's plans for WM 7, ie the so-called Twist UI, where you navigate side to side and up and down? Its a further advancement on the UI of the T-Mobile Shadow and the WM 6.1 standard UI.
Its designed for greater discoverability of features, which is rather nice.
Surur
I watched the video of the WM7 interface. It sucks. As usual, MS likes to make the thing complicated.

surur says:

Actually, BGR said he was uimpressed by the diamond.
It’s been quite a day here in London with HTC rolling out the red carpet treatment in recognition of the launch of their new Touch Diamond handset. We’ll certainly be the first to admit that we were a bit underwhelmed by the Touch Diamond announcement when it first hit. The phone has been circulating the web for a week or two now, and we were really hoping that the company would announce a full line of handsets, including the rumored Raphael with a full QWERTY keyboard. While we would still like to have seen a bit more from the Taiwanese company today, upon reflection, we think that the launch is certainly deserving of merit and accolade.
.
.
.Again, we would have loved to see more new stuff today — Android, Raphael, etc, but we’re confident that HTC is making some pretty good moves and laying a solid foundation for their future product lines. Was the event today worthy of the hype? Maybe not, but it’s by no means the misstep we initially thought it to be.http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-world-press-event-wrap-up/
Do all iPhoneys have reading comprehension problems?
Surur

Rene Ritchie says:

Where does Danger now fit into Windows Mobile's development?

surur says:

Where does Danger now fit into Windows Mobile's development?
A consumer version of WM?
Redmond, Wash — April 15, 2008 — Microsoft Corp. has completed its acquisition of Danger, Inc., the company announced today. Danger's expertise in building great, intuitive client software for mobile handsets connected to powerful hosted back-end services fosters rich consumer experiences in communication, media sharing, entertainment and personalization. The combined force of Danger and Microsoft strengthens the company's ability to provide innovative mobile experiences to more consumers.
Danger will become a part of the new Premium Mobile Experiences (PMX) team, a group within the Mobile Communications Business (MCB) of the Entertainment and Devices Division at Microsoft. The PMX team focuses on consumer-facing mobile projects and is led by Roz Ho, corporate vice president of Premium Mobile Experiences, reporting to Andy Lees, senior vice president of the MCB. Danger co-founders Matt Hershenson and Joe Britt will join the new organization, reporting directly to Ho.
"We imagine a mobile experience that embraces sharing and celebrating relationships and personal moments," Ho said. "Combining Danger and Microsoft talents together in the Premium Mobile Experiences team is how we're going to deliver cool, new, fun mobile experiences to consumers. We want people to smile every time they look at their phone."
The Danger mobile Internet platform, which connects people to their social circles and other rich content, is an integrated end-to-end solution that enables people to interact with their friends, social communities and content through the Internet and Internet services.
"At Danger, we created a fun and easy-to-use mobile experience for today's Internet-savvy consumer," Britt said.
Hershenson added, "As we combine our team and technologies with Microsoft, we see a clear path to evolving that experience and delivering it to an even broader group of consumers."http://www.danger.com/press/pr.php?cat=2008&id=20080415
I must say, if I look at the weather report on my phone and see a wiper blade, I might smile, even if its going to rain.
Surur

mobileman says:

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-world-press-event-wrap-up/
Do all iPhoneys have reading comprehension problems?
Surur
Ofcourse the link you posted, is not the one I originally did. My link was thishttp://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-touch-diamond-hands-on/
Again, for the second time, he said this in the above link............
"After today’s press event we got a chance to spend a bit of quality time with HTC’s new Touch Diamond. While we were admittedly playing with a pre-production unit, we came away slightly…unimpressed."

surur says:

Ofcourse the link you posted, is not the one I originally did. My link was thishttp://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/05/06/htc-touch-diamond-hands-on/
Again, for the second time, he said this in the above link............
"After today’s press event we got a chance to spend a bit of quality time with HTC’s new Touch Diamond. While we were admittedly playing with a pre-production unit, we came away slightly…unimpressed."
And he followed up, on review, with a more considered opinion. Also he does not understand the gesture system.
Surur

mobileman says:

And he followed up, on review, with a more considered opinion. Also he does not understand the gesture system.
Surur
I love this quote from his report........
"This is, without a doubt, the most un-Windows Mobile-like Windows Mobile interface we’ve ever seen, and that’s a good thing. "
Again, why put fancy window dressing on a bad OS. HTC should just create their own.

surur says:

I love this quote from his report........
"This is, without a doubt, the most un-Windows Mobile-like Windows Mobile interface we’ve ever seen, and that’s a good thing. "
Again, why put fancy window dressing on a bad OS. HTC should just create their own.
Maybe it would cost them a lot to replicate the functionality of a mature OS, and would lose half the market that made them a $15.7 billion company?
Surur

cmaier says:

They could start with linux. They've already put a lot of effort into the UI elements, which is where most of the work would be anyway.

surur says:

They could start with linux. They've already put a lot of effort into the UI elements, which is where most of the work would be anyway.
Android? The people who think Android is going to be as functional as WM when it comes out are pretty delusional.
I think its pretty hilarious, considering HTC's growth, that you dont think there is advantages to using WM. If WM was as bad as you believe, HTC would have shut up shop by now, instead of achieving this:
Surur

cmaier says:

WM is serviceable for what it is. My comment on linux is based on the observation that many of the complaints regarding diamond have more to do with the random intrusion of WM gui elements and behaviors into what otherwise seems to be a somewhat promising UI paradigm.
Taking their UI concepts, and building a self-consistent design on top of a core like linux might be pretty compelling. The advantages for them of linux over WM are twofold: WM costs them $$, whereas linux is free, and linux has certain technical advantages when it comes to bolting a UI onto it. On the other hand, WM does have certain sdk's that they would have to build from scratch or acquire.
As for your specious argument, WM is as bad as I believe, but since the alternatives also suck, WM has done well. If Palm hadn't taken its ball and gone home a few years ago, it might be a different story. My point regarding the coming demise of WM has always been that it finally has competition, and that MS has shown absolutely no capacity to deal with competition in the last 5 years or so, and instead has coasted on the intertia of its own market share and technical lock-ins.

cmaier says:

I see you edited your post. Care to add a google stock graph for comparison? ;-)
Nor did I say anything about android being "as functional" as WM. (BTW, I still reject your entire limited view of what contributes to "functionality" and what does not). I was merely speaking about a nice engine on which to build a nice gui.
ps: i didn't even mention "android," did I? Android is not the only mobile/cellphone OS that is based on linux.

surur says:

WM is serviceable for what it is. My comment on linux is based on the observation that many of the complaints regarding diamond have more to do with the random intrusion of WM gui elements and behaviors into what otherwise seems to be a somewhat promising UI paradigm.
If they wanted to build from scratch they could always use Win CE. My point is that the so called "random intrusion of WM gui" adds value - a Linux device would just be another Samsung Glyde for example - an isolated island with no ecosystem.
As for your specious argument, WM is as bad as I believe, but since the alternatives also suck, WM has done well. If Palm hadn't taken its ball and gone home a few years ago, it might be a different story. My point regarding the coming demise of WM has always been that it finally has competition, and that MS has shown absolutely no capacity to deal with competition in the last 5 years or so, and instead has coasted on the intertia of its own market share and technical lock-ins.
That would make some sense if MS had any most of lock in the market, but seeing how they only have a small percentage market share, heavy competition from giants like Nokia, and have freely licensed the "technical lock-ins" like Exchange Activesync and Playsforsure, you would have to admit that WM has held its own on its own merits. MS has done precious little to push the OS for example.
Surur

surur says:

I see you edited your post. Care to add a google stock graph for comparison? ;-)
Nor did I say anything about android being "as functional" as WM. (BTW, I still reject your entire limited view of what contributes to "functionality" and what does not). I was merely speaking about a nice engine on which to build a nice gui.
ps: i didn't even mention "android," did I? Android is not the only mobile/cellphone OS that is based on linux.
HTC has said many times they feel better with a strong partner, like MS or Google. As I said, building an a proprietary platform with lead to Palming.
Surur

Rene Ritchie says:

What was/is the Danger/Sidekick OS built on?

surur says:

I see you edited your post. Care to add a google stock graph for comparison? ;-)
The blue line is Google.
I'm sure HTC would be very flattered to be compared to Google, but actually their stock graph isn't too dissimilar, and in fact HTC seems to have grown faster. Of course one is in Taiwanese dollars and the other in US dollars, but since its relative growth we are talking about that does not really matter.
Surur

mobileman says:

Maybe it would cost them a lot to replicate the functionality of a mature OS, and would lose half the market that made them a $15.7 billion company?
Surur
Or maybe their new OS would be so good that it would attract people that will never again use a Windows Mobile device.

surur says:

What was/is the Danger/Sidekick OS built on?
Like blackberry, Hiptop OS seems to be largely Java.
Surur

marcol says:

My point regarding the coming demise of WM has always been that it finally has competition, and that MS has shown absolutely no capacity to deal with competition in the last 5 years or so, and instead has coasted on the intertia of its own market share and technical lock-ins.
WM hasn't really coasted anywhere good in terms of market share in the past few years:
[INDENT]Symbian: Q1 2004 41%
Microsoft: Q1 2004 23%
PalmSource: Q1 2004 22%
RIM: Q1 2004 6%
Symbian: Q4 2007 65%
Microsoft: Q4 2007 12%
RIM: Q4 2007 11%
Apple: Q4 2007 7%
Linux: Q4 2007 5%[/INDENT]
http://www.canalys.com/pr/2005/r2005041.htmhttp://www.canalys.com/pr/2008/r2008021.htm

marcol says:

I must say, if I look at the weather report on my phone and see a wiper blade, I might smile, even if its going to rain.
Wiper blade was my favourite bit of the demo! Living in England though the attraction might wear a bit thin rather quickly.

burnsaa says:

So really where / when do you guys post wait-a-thon winners its been like 2 months now since you guys started doing this and I've only seen two winners. Just saying maybe you should have the past weeks winner in the wait a thon box on the homepage.

topolina says:

Yowzas! Yeah, the clones have got nothing on the iPhone :)

Cypy says:

I'm on the waiting list.

Luca says:

I don't thinks so, its just another generation of Touch devices...

Douchey McGee says:

Weaksauce in my opinion. Can't touch the iPhone.

Jad says:

its funny, this always happens :P
the microsoft beast and its partners ( like HTC ) "copy" ( not really copy as much as just facing the fact that what is out works) the Apple Inc beast and ends up overthrowing it ... ;)
face it apple
U SUCK

Jayjaylemony says:

Cmaier, I'm back at the stylus issue. Ok, so what if you don't write Chinese? Nobody cares because you're just another dot on the face of existence. I do write Chinese, and I take it rather offensive.
Jayjaylemony

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